Author Topic: C3 steering (Read 17893 times)

metalhead · « **on:** July 13, 2015, 04:43:25 PM »

Ok, I have put a few kms on my new-to-me 1979 C3 now, and got it out onto the open road. I felt very unhappy with the (power) steering, as I really couldn't tell what the front wheels were doing, there was just no feel/feedback at all. Keep in mind that my daily driver is a 1979 F250 with power steering, so I am used to heavily assisted recirculating ball steering. I found it very disconcerting, the steering was responsive, but I couldn't tell by feel/feedback what the front wheels were doing! Is this normal? Or maybe due to not enough caster, or a fault in the power steering?

I actually disconnected the power steering belt as a test, and instantly felt much more comfortable - I could now tell the small amount of slop in the steering (the car does need a suspension and steering refresh), and could feel the steering take up and respond. I was much happier to push the car a little harder, and actually drive the country roads around my house at a reasonable speed. I didn't think it unreasonably heavy at low speed either (lighter than my wife's Datsun 260Z), though I'd expect a lot of people would disagree with me on that.

I guess I'm just wondering if this lack of feel is an inherent feature of the power steering in C3's (in which case I will definitely not be staying with the factory power steer), or if there's something else to be chasing here? It might be worth noting that I didn't find this an issue around the slower suburban streets where I test drove the car before purchase. At 80-90km/h+ though it became quite disconcerting, at least for me. Maybe it's something people get used to?

Thanks in advance!

sirfixalot · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2015, 05:11:03 PM »

The power steering originally came out on about a 57 chev it is not variable ratio like a modern p/steer basically has the same assist at 10k as 100k

metalhead · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2015, 05:28:23 PM »

Thanks heaps for your quick reply, and for your help on other issues via PM!

I understand that the assist from the power steering is constant, and the steering will get lighter as speed increases. My '79 F250 doesn't have variable assist on the power steering either (to the best of my knowledge), and of course the steering is lighter at higher speeds. Put it this way though, with the power steering hooked up on the Vette, I am more comfortable driving the F250 at higher speeds than the Vette as I can at least feel what the front wheels are doing! Take off the power steering belt and it's a totally different story. I guess what I'm asking is, how much feedback (if any) should the factory power steering provide, particularly at 90km/h+? Is it normal to have no feedback/feel at those speeds?

Thanks,

Andrew.

bfit · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2015, 06:28:31 PM »

I don't like the original power steering, to me it just did not feel rite .
If you want too its posible to get a set of earlier steering arms and convert the car to Armstrong steering.

Another thought
When you are sitting in you c3 going 200k you will get a different view of the car .
C3 don't have provision for a lot of caster in stock form.
It will tend to tram and that can be difficult at times.
Especially when you pointing it one way and it's going somewhere else.
Bfit

Vettech · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2015, 08:21:31 PM »

My 78 was original and was disgusting, had it changed to a Toyota Cresida arrangement - better but still not rack & pinion. One of our members up in Port or Lake Cathie fitted his own R&P to a C3 - oh! And Frank Ingall over Bondi/Tamarama has also perfected fitting early Commodore R&P to his C3. I think he may have had some pics on the forum at one stage.

Jethro · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2015, 09:12:18 PM »

Quote from: Bfit on July 13, 2015, 06:28:31 PM

I don't like the original power steering, to me it just did not feel rite .
If you want too its posible to get a set of earlier steering arms and convert the car to Armstrong steering.

Another thought
When you are sitting in you c3 going 200k you will get a different view of the car .
C3 don't have provision for a lot of caster in stock form.
It will tend to tram and that can be difficult at times.
Especially when you pointing it one way and it's going somewhere else.
Bfit

Ah you've always like your BIG ass end point you in the correct direction Bobby

sabre · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2015, 04:11:20 AM »

You might try checking the pump pressure. A good power steering guy should be able to set the pressure lower to reduce the assistance.

metalhead · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2015, 09:53:38 PM »

I did post previously, but must have got lost in the server move. Thanks for all the posts. I think the gist that I got is that, whether or not mine is worse than normal, the issue I have with the steering is to be expected with the stock setup to some degree. That being the case, I think I will stick with manual steering, and/or look into a Borgeson or R&P conversion in the future. Thanks a lot for all your help!

Cheers,

Andrew.

metalhead · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2015, 10:25:20 AM »

So after much research I decided on the Borgeson setup. I have pulled apart the front end, and am fitting all new parts while I'm at it, moog balljoints/tierods/idler arm, energy suspension poly bushes, bilstein shocks, and global west upper control arms for a bit of extra caster. I discovered my car has the gymkhana suspension option, so haven't bothered changing springs and sway bars at this point. All of the parts were the original factory parts (riveted balljoints, gm part numbers) and were pretty worn out, so it should be a huge improvement! I have the parts to do the rear also.

One thing with Borgeson steering that wasn't in the instructions - it fouls on the factory clutch linkage. Wasn't too big a problem, I modified the linkage to attach to the opposite side of the pushrod from the clutch pedal and everything clears nicely.

metalhead · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2015, 09:36:50 AM »

I should note that the Borgeson supplier tells me he has fitted Borgeson boxes to manual C3's with no interference to the clutch linkage/Z bar, so it's probably something that varies car to car - I did see a few other people mention it on other forums, so I'm not the only one.

All back in the car now, looks and feels good, but no real driving impressions yet as I decided to tackle the rear as well before getting it aligned.

Green69 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 13, 2015, 09:22:13 PM »

Do you have any pictures by chance? For the P/S pump, do you use the "old" steel style body pump or a modern one like in Holden for example. And did you set up the pressure a bit lower to make it less responsive?
Many thanks in advance.
Thierry

bfit · « **Reply #11 on:** November 13, 2015, 10:59:13 PM »

The Borgeson swap is straight forward
But there's always. But!

Remember a 40 odd year old car may not nessacerally be straight nor in original condition in regards to frame dimensions.

You may need to be creative to make it all work.
Mine uses the chev steering pump no problems
It worth modifying the return oil line to a jic fitting
The major problem you will have is, getting enough caster with the stock top control arm.

Bfit

metalhead · « **Reply #12 on:** November 13, 2015, 11:09:40 PM »

I've got a few pictures, and I can take some more, what would you like to see? I'm using the original pump. I haven't adjusted the pressure lower, but it's an option. My car has been stuck off the road waiting for some diff parts from the US (which sat in Customs for a couple of weeks

and finally arrived at the post office today) so I can put the rear suspension back together. Then I'll align it (with a heap of extra caster on the front, I've installed the global west offset tubular upper arms), drive it, and decide whether I want to reduce the assistance. I think Bfit is on the money. As aftermarket performance parts go, this is an easy and painless install, but there's always something...

craigh · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2015, 08:36:24 AM »

Quote from: Bfit on November 13, 2015, 10:59:13 PM

The Borgeson swap is straight forward
But there's always. But!

Remember a 40 odd year old car may not nessacerally be straight nor in original condition in regards to frame dimensions.

You may need to be creative to make it all work.
Mine uses the chev steering pump no problems
It worth modifying the return oil line to a jic fitting
The major problem you will have is, getting enough caster with the stock top control arm.

Bfit

What top control arms are you running and how much caster did you end up with ?

Also did you change lower control arm as well ?

Craig

Green69 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2015, 10:47:35 AM »

For the pictures,if you have an overall view of the installation, and one of the pump bolted onto the motor. I am just trying to figure how big this is. I have a manual steering and I would like to add way more caster. So not being in prime anymore I will need an assistance of some sort .

bfit · « **Reply #15 on:** November 14, 2015, 07:49:28 PM »

Theirry
Borgeson sell a kit that give you everything needed to covert a Armstrong system to power assist.
As for the Borgeson steering box it is larger than the original
You need to have at least 13 mm clearance between original steering box and engine to fit the Borgeson unit in.
Chaig
I have stock control arms, with them you can get 2 1/2 to may be 3 degs caster , its a juggling act with the caster settings
you can be creative and with the original top arms to get more caster but much better to go aftermarker.
I'm going to ridetech for mine
Bfit

Green69 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 14, 2015, 08:58:24 PM »

Thank you Sir.
Thierry

metalhead · « **Reply #17 on:** November 14, 2015, 10:19:15 PM »

Well, I should have taken more photos during the process, but I didn't, sorry! And apologies as all are taken on my phone, so not great photos.

Here is a shot taken while I was installing it, after I modified the clutch z bar. You can see it connects to the other side of the clutch pushrod to original, as I've bent it to clear the steering box. You can see the yellow plugs still in the ports where the power steering hoses are now connected.:

The rest of these pictures were taken tonight. Apologies the lighting isn't great, which didn't help. If you'd like something else let me know and I'll snap it tomorrow. Note that the steering column is out of the car, I'm rebuilding it at the moment.

A top down on the steering box:

The power steering pump hiding under the alt (stock):

And a few from underneath:

Hope that helps?

metalhead · « **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2015, 07:54:45 AM »

Quote from: craigh on November 14, 2015, 08:36:24 AM

What top control arms are you running and how much caster did you end up with ?

Also did you change lower control arm as well ?

Craig

Craig,

The reason I only went for a replacement upper arm was because the upper arm is the one with the changed geometry. The replacement lower arms all (I believe) have the same geometry as the stock lower arms, just a little lighter and possibly stiffer. I doubt you'd notice much if any difference in performance from replacing the lower arms, which is why I kept the stock lower arms at this stage.

Cheers,

Andrew.

bfit · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2015, 08:15:02 AM »

I see the old power steering bracket is welded to the under side of the chassis .
I think that's a problem that should be addressed , welding a cross the bottom og the chassis is a real no go area and defiantly not straight across the frame.
Bfit