NSW Corvettes

Technical Tips => Post 84 => Topic started by: Jethro on February 16, 2008, 04:39:50 PM

Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on February 16, 2008, 04:39:50 PM
Hi,

The other day me Vette just cut out on us when  we where driving... would run over but would not start.... hour later away she went, thought you tempremental %$#@#!%^& well went to start me vette (1988 C4 ) the other day.... no go! She cranked no worries but wont fire up. When I turned the ignition I didn't hear the fuel pump prime up and when I looked at fuel pressure gauge that is fitted under hood on fuel rails I had no pressure, even when I was cranking the motor over.  Well as the consensus with me mates was, looks like fuel pump, I decided to replace fuel pump and all looked good, turned ignition got instant fuel pressure 45 PSI Oh YEs! turned the the key and no worries fired up revved no worries So Chubbed up!. Off & On a couple of times no worries.... next day started straight off thought to myself, you beaut, I nailed this problem...... got in drove down the road 5 minutes into it, guess what? yeap no go go juice! pulled over on the side of the road dead as.........., tried starting her, no go popped the hood,  no pressure on fuel gauge that is fitted to fuel rails...... even cranked her and checked fuel pressure was non existent gave it another couple of minutes...... cranked no go...... another couple of minutes, turned the ignition on and  the fuel gauge popped up to 45 PSI on gauge! what the hell is going on?
Thanks
P.S anyone know where Fuel Relay is and what I'd be looking for?

Think we've found the issue! Well, fingers crossed anyways………

Well, eventually after replacing the fuel pump as previously stated then checking and isolating relays, wiring, ECU yadda, yadda, yadda  we were scratching our heads.... Found some interesting notes on the net about C4's and internal fuel wiring harness breaking down inside the tank....
“In-tank wiring is quickly becoming a major problem due to the age of the C4's. Many terminals are heavily corroded or rusting off. 
The generic in-tank wiring adapters supplied with other installation kits rely on the questionable factory wiring and adds another connection to the equation. This translates to more resistance / voltage loss and an extra potential failure point”.
http://www.lmspeed.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=19
Came up with the theory, it's gotta be in the tank? We stripped the sender unit back out of tank and payed closure attention to the wiring harness from the top of fuel lid to pump. Looked sh#t and brittle and under close inspection in places it looked a bit melted? Anyway, decided to replace all the wiring harness from external “L” connector just outside the filler tank plate down to fuel pump and guess what? Vette is purring once again and even the miss / hesitation that I mentioned in overdrive. < hesitates under load especially in top gear and the hunting when hot> has lessened dramatically! I’m gonna drive her for a while and if this stops the intermittent fault eventually replacing the rest of the wiring on fuel system just as outline in “LMSpeed” foot note. Lets hope its fixed FINGERS CROSSED! Keep ya’s posted! P.S. four days later and 600klms still running fine !






;):ado
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on February 16, 2008, 06:23:50 PM
From the few I have worked on for some of the lads, there are two ways that the fuel pump is held on.

One is the start relay which is controlled by the computer.  It turns the fuel pump on for initial start up.  After a minute or so it drops out and the fuel pump is kept on by an oil pressure switch.  One of two located near the dissy.  If no oil pressure it shuts the fuel pump down stopping the motor from running.  By the same token if said oil pressure switch is faulty the motor will shut down.  But this is not in operation during start up.  The lock in relay does that.

The lock in relay, I have found them in a couple of locations depending on who did the conversion.  Some in the engine bay and some behind the dash.  If it's one of the ones behind the dash.....good luck.  LOL!!

One way to help pin point the problem is to temporarily by-pass the oil pressure switch that locks in the fuel pump.  You will know which one it is by disconnecting the wires of one of the oil pressure switches, and if you can get the motor running, see if the motor stops or the oil pressure gauge does not read.  This will tell you which one is which.

With the correct oil pressure switch by-passed you should be able to run the motor.  Mind you your fuel pump will not turn off when you turn off the motor so this is not to be left connected.

I'm suspecting a dickey fuel pump start relay or associated wiring connection.

This is only what I have found from experience and not to be taken as gospel.

Hope it helps.

PS there is a diagnostic chart that can help you find the problem.  This chart gives you a step by step, (flow chart), of how to pinpoint where the problem is.  You will need to purchase a full GM workshop manual, couple of hundred dollars, or find some one who has one who will copy the page and send it to you.

Cam
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on February 16, 2008, 07:39:09 PM
Ya gotta love Google. ;41

You may want to check this thread out on corvette forum:-  http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1940104

I grabbed some of the information off that site and have stored it on our server for safe keeping



Code 54 is fuel pump circuit. Most likely the relay. Its mounted on firewall next to wiper motor.
(http://www.splashedpaint.com/cameron/ForumPicsPrompts08/FuelPumpC4Electrical/FuelPumpRelay03.jpg)

(http://www.splashedpaint.com/cameron/ForumPicsPrompts08/FuelPumpC4Electrical/FuelPumpRelay01.jpg)

(http://www.splashedpaint.com/cameron/ForumPicsPrompts08/FuelPumpC4Electrical/FuelPumpRelay02.jpg)

Click The Adobe logo below for a PDF printable version of the above circuit diagram and flow chart
(http://www.splashedpaint.com/cameron/ForumPicsPrompts08/LogosGeneral/reader_icon_special.jpg) (http://www.splashedpaint.com/cameron/ForumPicsPrompts08/FuelPumpC4Electrical/Code54.pdf)

Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on February 16, 2008, 08:01:21 PM
Excellent,

Sounds the go I'll have to root around with it later in the week cause she's got the old Blood Pressure up right now! let you know what I find. Thanks Heaps for the other post and circuit you found on Google...
Regards, Jethro!
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: 87Z51 on February 20, 2008, 11:14:38 PM
Switch is intended to keep pump running if relay drops out , not as oil pressure safety device.
At 5 lb setting engine would be dead before switch drops out.

Check connection on pump relay.Common problem for insulation to go bad as well as  bad or intermitant connections.

Jumper orange to tan / white at relay plug and pump should run.Easier to get to than oil switch behind dist.

Put a volt meter on the green / white to earth and see if it gets 12V when the key is turned on.(confirms prime signal from computer )

As a note if relay is not operating  , in a car with a decent battery, cranking should bring the oil pressure up enough to close oil pressure switch and operate pump.
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on February 21, 2008, 06:37:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 87Z51
Switch is intended to keep pump running if relay drops out , not as oil pressure safety device.
At 5 lb setting engine would be dead before switch drops out.

Check connection on pump relay.Common problem for insulation to go bad as well as  bad or intermitant connections.

Jumper orange to tan / white at relay plug and pump should run.Easier to get to than oil switch behind dist.

Put a volt meter on the green / white to earth and see if it gets 12V when the key is turned on.(confirms prime signal from computer )

As a note if relay is not operating  , in a car with a decent battery, cranking should bring the oil pressure up enough to close oil pressure switch and operate pump.


Sorry but can I get you to explain a little easier? What do you want me to try? I don't understand what to mean "jumper orange to Tan"  ? I can't find the tan wire?
Jethro
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: 87Z51 on February 21, 2008, 11:32:10 PM
When you find the fuel pump relay (should be on firewall beside dist) there are 4 wires in the relay plug.Two thicker than the other two.

Orange is the power from the battery
Tan / wht is the supply to the pump .May be different colour.
The two thicker wires are the pump in / out wires

Green / wht is the operating signal from the computer
Blk / wht is the earth

The computer puts 12V on the green /wht to close the relay and let power go from the batterty to the pump.

By jumpering the two thick wires you are bypassing the relay and checking pump only operation.
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on February 22, 2008, 07:36:11 AM
O.K. Thanks will try this this weekend!

Jeff:ado
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on February 22, 2008, 06:42:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 87Z51
When you find the fuel pump relay (should be on firewall beside dist) there are 4 wires in the relay plug.Two thicker than the other two.

Orange is the power from the battery
Tan / wht is the supply to the pump .May be different colour.
The two thicker wires are the pump in / out wires

Green / wht is the operating signal from the computer
Blk / wht is the earth

The computer puts 12V on the green /wht to close the relay and let power go from the batterty to the pump.

By jumpering the two thick wires you are bypassing the relay and checking pump only operation.


Dose anyone know what relay is the Fuel pump Relay? I've got Four Relays side by side starting near distributor , all of them in a tight position to get to? I don't want to short something else out?  
These are the # 's on them:
7299 - 14089936
0339 - 14089936
5320 - 14089936
The last has #14103304 marked on it
all fours show the same value i.e:

E   C
D   A
     F

:fun
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: 87Z51 on February 22, 2008, 11:22:42 PM
#14103304  should be pump ( is on mine anyway )
others are fan and MAF burn off.

all fours show the same value i.e:

E C
D A
F
They are the pin positions
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on March 09, 2008, 09:31:07 AM
I hate this intermittent fault! Have now worked out wasn't fuel / oil pressure  relays... last time I could get it to cut out I had power right  the top of fuel tank.... Funny thing is that when I had it in a no fuel pressure - non start I tapped the top of the fuel tank.... and guess what? (new fuel pump fitted don't forget) Vette is now down with Auto Electrician.... been there two weeks! Will keep ya's posted!;29
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: 87Z51 on March 09, 2008, 06:01:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jethro
... Funny thing is that when I had it in a no fuel pressure - non start I tapped the top of the fuel tank.... and guess what? ;29


Faulty connection to pump on wire from filler plate or bad connection on plug.
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on March 09, 2008, 08:23:28 PM
I thinking the same thing! Will let you know what turns out!;30
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Jethro on March 16, 2008, 07:48:55 PM
Think we've found the issue! Well, fingers crossed anyways………

Well, eventually after replacing the fuel pump as previously stated then checking and isolating relays, wiring, ECU yadda, yadda, yadda  we were scratching our heads.... Found some interesting notes on the net about C4's and internal fuel wiring harness breaking down inside the tank....
“In-tank wiring is quickly becoming a major problem due to the age of the C4's. Many terminals are heavily corroded or rusting off. &#8232;The generic in-tank wiring adapters supplied with other installation kits rely on the questionable factory wiring and adds another connection to the equation. This translates to more resistance / voltage loss and an extra potential failure point”.
http://www.lmspeed.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=19
Came up with the theory, it's gotta be in the tank? We stripped the sender unit back out of tank and payed closure attention to the wiring harness from the top of fuel lid to pump. Looked sh#t and brittle and under close inspection in places it looked a bit melted? Anyway, decided to replace all the wiring harness from external “L” connector just outside the filler tank plate down to fuel pump and guess what? Vette is purring once again and even the miss / hesitation that I mentioned in overdrive. < hesitates under load especially in top gear and the hunting when hot> has lessened dramatically! I’m gonna drive her for a while and if this stops the intermittent fault eventually replacing the rest of the wiring on fuel system just as outline in “LMSpeed” foot note. Lets hope its fixed FINGERS CROSSED! Keep ya’s posted! P.S. four days later and 600klms still running fine !

:ado:ado:ado
Title: I think we fixed the problem!
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on March 16, 2008, 08:01:57 PM
Thats good news.  Thanks for keeping us in the loop.  Lets hope it's all clear sailing from here on. ;42