NSW Corvettes

Technical Tips => Brakes, Suspensions, Steering, Wheels & Tyres => Topic started by: Cameron 77C3 on October 28, 2006, 09:53:51 AM

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on October 28, 2006, 09:53:51 AM

No it's not on my beast.

I have a mate who has a C4.  He put it up on my hoist so he could change the old oil on the power steering.  Drained it, ran the motor and moved steering from lock to lock to get as much fluid out as possible.

Filled her back up...and it groaned it's head off.  He thought that it might be his pump as it was getting old so he decided to put the new one in.  Same thing with the new pump.

Now there has got to be a trick here so what is it?

Chromie, any body.

Cam

[/align]

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: MADVET on October 28, 2006, 10:23:16 AM

Sounds like air in the system. Just turn the steering from lock to lock while keeping an eye on the fluid level, continue this until the sound goes away and bubbles stop frothing up in the reservoir.

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on October 28, 2006, 12:41:34 PM

Cavitation????

There was a lot of air in it as I could see the bubbles in the remote tank.

So how long does that take?   He did do the lock to lock thing after filling.  He drove home, about 20 minutes of winding road then next day to Yass but he said it was still noisy but getting a LITTLE quieter.

Is this normal on these beast?  Is there no better or correct way to bleed the air off?

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: david_moore on October 28, 2006, 02:51:15 PM

Sorry I can't help here, am very interested to know more as the power steering in the '91 does howl its head off after 'spirited drivin'. And no, that does not mean after 'the four schooner handling' option has been purchased.
I have often wondered about the correct way to service the power steering on a C4. Wish i still had the '79.:22

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 28, 2006, 05:38:20 PM

Yes cam madvette is correct
You have to run engine after each top up to the full mark of the power steering dip stick
Run engine while going from lock to lock on the steering
If pump is noisy after going from lock to lock shut down engine and check power steering oil level
and repeat this until level is at full
It is recommend that this be done with front wheels off the ground
The oil level should be checked again after 24 hours;-)

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 28, 2006, 05:40:07 PM

If you have any power steering noise while engine s running and steering is not being used and the oil level is correct then the chances are that your pump is faulty
(exception is if you have just flushed the power steering oil out);27
Also some power steering pumps will be noisy if the oil is old, contaminated or incorrect type of oil used

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on October 29, 2006, 03:50:55 PM

So what your telling me it's a cow of a job and it takes time to get all the air out????

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 29, 2006, 07:51:37 PM

No cam:b4
What I am saying is that it is a reasonably simple job based upon
1/ Equipment
2/ Experience
3/ Knowledge of the item you are servicing
4/ Some common sense
;42
And sometimes it can be messy when flushing out the power steering oil.:spook

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on October 29, 2006, 08:10:53 PM

Thanks Chromie.

We did all that, except the part of having the wheels off the ground.  I'll pass it on and see what happens.  It has to be a process thing as both pumps do it.

I have heard of additives that you can put in pumps to quieten them down.  Any comments on these?

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 29, 2006, 08:40:10 PM

Yes cam it could be a processing issue, but if both pumps do it then it maybe a mechanic issue especially if the first pump did not make any noises until after the oil flush.
The reason why the wheels are off the ground is to reduce strain on pump and steering linkages when going from lock to lock.
Also the true way to bleed power steering systems is to crank the engine over by starter motor until most of the air is out, but this puts too much strain on the starter motor especially old one's
So if you want to do it correctly, remove the spark plugs so the starter motor strain is reduced don't forget to remove the power wire from the distributor.
Sometimes power steering pumps will make a noise for a week after servicing/flushing/repairs depending upon mileage.
Hope this helps;-)

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on October 29, 2006, 08:41:44 PM

What about the additives that you can put in pumps to quieten them down. Any comments on these?

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 29, 2006, 08:52:46 PM

Yes cam use them when you are thirsty
Doubt they will do any good but may do harm though
However if you might be changing the pump anyway due to noise what harm can it do
Just make sure that the pump is making the noise
Not the Air Pump, Water Pump or Alternator.;42

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Cameron 77C3 on October 29, 2006, 08:54:25 PM

Funny bugger.;48

Thanks;42

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Shane Finn on October 30, 2006, 08:27:56 AM

I have a similar problem on the '01 that I am about to attempt to sort out. I have never changed the PS fluid and it is now foaming which is apparently an indication of water contamination. The major problem is a serious groan in the pump after sustained high revs.

I have all the manuals for the car and reading the PS fluid flushing/bleed procedure they describe a process which uses a vacuum adapter on the reservoir to pull a vacuum on the system for 5 minutes to bleed the air.

I wonder if anyone actually follows this procedure? Would a steering specialist do this?

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 30, 2006, 10:44:52 AM

yes zedohsix
The vacuum pump system is the best way to bleed power steering pumps
But no one has the vacuum pumps. So if you take it to a power steering place make sure that you make them show you the vacuum pump and watch them use it on your Corvette;42

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Vette Obsessed on October 30, 2006, 01:52:41 PM

Hi guys, it's me who is having the power steering issues.

I suspect the aeration of the fluid is initially caused by the bleeding of the system (or improper method of doing it).  The noise calms down after at least a day or two of driving.

This all started because the system ALWAYS gets loud when driving on curvy roads/tracks in a spirited fashion.  I tried a few fluid flushes and different fluids to no avail - the groaning after filling the system is an additional issue to the "getting a steering pump groan when driving quickly on twisty roads".

The car has an oil cooler on the power steering and I am doubtful at this point that it is heat related (although I now have a cold air feed for the oil cooler now (thanks again for the help with that Cam ;42) I have not been able to test it conclusively yet).

The only time I haven't done this process with the wheels off the ground was at Cameron's although the noise has always been the same after filling the reservoir.

At this point I am thinking it is a pump or rack issue (the aerating fluid on twisty roads/racetrack issue that is).

Quote

Originally posted by david_moore
Sorry I can't help here, am very interested to know more as the power steering in the '91 does howl its head off after 'spirited drivin'. And no, that does not mean after 'the four schooner handling' option has been purchased.
I have often wondered about the correct way to service the power steering on a C4. Wish i still had the '79.:22

I'll let you all know when I get to the bottom of it David.  I've had this issue since I got the car and am now committed to eliminating it. :24

After recent experience with an additive, I am inclined to say to avoid using them - whilst I think I used too much additive vs oil, I have just blown two lines on my power steering system in two consecutive days since using additive in the system (which is VERY thick).

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 30, 2006, 02:23:47 PM

hi obsessed
If a pump makes a noise for a long period, no amount of flushing will cure it as the damage is already in the pump.;50
Rack will not cause a pump noise only a clunk, vibration or oil leaks.;37
What you need is a new/reconditioned pump.
As far as the additives are concerned ;51 with what you have stated.:v
Make sure that you allow plenty of time to fit the new pump
Prime the pump before fitting(put pump in oil and drive the shaft with a drill and see how the flow is (be prepaired for a mess as they pump large volumn of oil):spook
Read your hand book for correct oil type (I use TQ111):24

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 30, 2006, 02:27:54 PM

Oh and special note
Always check your oil level with engine running
First check it cold and not running
Then hot and not running
Look at the level in the resivour make note of it's height then start the engine and look at the level again. Some if not most pumps should have the oil level checked while engine is running.
BE CAREFULL NOT TO TOUCH THE BELT OR ANY OTHER MOVING ENGINE PART.;28;34

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: david_moore on October 30, 2006, 06:28:08 PM

Great info chromie! I have done all that you have mentioned 'cept the vacuum stuff with steering specialists. I find it v difficult to find a mechanic that can be trusted and knows what they are talking about, but I am the original ultra cynic. I know they exist, but just not in my 'hood. Have had the pump at several specialists and am assurred it is quite ok. However, it still howls, groans and growls after 'sustained high revs' (ZEDohSIX).
I really think there is a problem with the pump, and from what you say, your info points to this. I am interested in how many others have this problem with their C4. Perchance is it particular year models of C4. A mismatch of steering rack to pump on lhd to rhd conversion?
Hey VO did you say your C4 has a cooler in the power steering system? I did put one on the ol'79 C3 but it was to stop the paint peelin off! well it stopped the odd leak anyway. But seriously, I thort the steering rack system was a lot more advanced, the power steering in the old 1983 commodore I have, beautiful.
As even a C4 corvette can really get movin, it would be nice to be sure about the steering, so many have told me it is ok, but I dunno..;49

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 30, 2006, 09:34:51 PM

I find this power steering noise issue strange:b4
As I have not come accross this problem in my travels with vehicles and I have done a few Corvettes:grr
So my thoughts on this matter is as follows;49
Assuming things associated with the steering componets are fitted correctly.
1/ Heat interference ie exhaust too close to pipes (solution test line with a thermo gun and see how hot the oil is after a hard run) you may need to insulate the line from heat as an oil cooler may cool the oil too much and cause early failure.
2/ Faulty power steering lines/fittings/hoses (meaning dags/sharp objects inside the line causing airation or sharp bends/calapsed hoses causing restrictiuon)
3/ Poor quality oil/incorrect oil level.
Note all power steering pumps will make a noise when on full lock as this it the pressure relief valve dumping oil.
I probably have to say here but C4's and later should be done by someone with reasonable experience
C2's and earlier can be done by almost anyone (except ya wife;30) as these models are pretty much idiot proof;50

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Vette Obsessed on October 30, 2006, 09:45:45 PM

Thanks for all the good info/advice Chromie. ;42

For what it's worth, I had a fellow at Winton this weekend ask me about my PS noise as he had the same problem too!

Quote

Originally posted by Chromie

2/ Faulty power steering lines/fittings/hoses (meaning dags/sharp objects inside the line causing airation or sharp bends/calapsed hoses causing restrictiuon)

In my case Chromie, I am putting my money on option two.  The rack is likely coming out in the next month and all systems are going to be checked.  A new pump is also going to be purchased - just not sure if I am going OEM or reinventing the wheel yet...

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on October 30, 2006, 09:49:38 PM

My choice would be "new"
I have fitted some remanufactured ones and some didn't even work  thus you test/bleed them in a bath of oil.
But mostly I have been successful with them
Racks do not cause problems so unless it is clunky/leaking oil or very old it is a waste
Hses on the other hand yep do them make sure that you make them yourself as most hose places stuff em up.;30

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Vette Obsessed on October 30, 2006, 10:03:11 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Chromie
My choice would be "new"
I have fitted some remanufactured ones and some didn't even work  thus you test/bleed them in a bath of oil.
But mostly I have been successful with them
Racks do not cause problems so unless it is clunky/leaking oil or very old it is a waste
Hses on the other hand yep do them make sure that you make them yourself as most hose places stuff em up.;30

It was the rack supplied by the convertor of my car - hence why I don't have a problem going over it to make sure it is as it should be.

As for the pump, I will definitely buy new if they are available.

I'm glad you mentioned hose places stuffing them up - I thought it was just me having bad experiences.  I've never had a line done right first time round. :b4

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: david_moore on October 31, 2006, 05:54:26 PM

No offence chromie but I reckon the power steering system in a C4 is far superior and simpler than earlier models. Your knowledge is very good and I appreciate it. But, idler arms, pitman arms, & draglinks etc in days of old were very good and still are, but pretty complex stuff when compared to a steering rack system. Just look at the conversion on some C3s (and I hate saying this) the drag link is often fit at an angle that is wrong. It is pretty hard to muck up the conversion when a rack is used.
I do wonder if the rack on some C4s when converted to RHD is different to others. The rack installed in mine is from a buick and that is meant to be a secret!!;43
It all operates fine but has that dang nuisance noise that appears when a C4 is coming on song. Still ok, the corners keep coming, I installed louder rear mufflers and this has helped, but now I'm looking at 800watt subs!
VO sounds like ur on the job, please keep us posted!:drink

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Shane Finn on November 01, 2006, 04:41:24 PM

Some updates on my PS issues in the '01...

I drained and flushed the old fluid and replaced it with Royal Purple MAX Ez. I modified an old reservoir cap and with a MityVac made it into a PS vacuum bleeder. Did all the turning left/right with the wheels off the ground, engine running and then pulled a vacuum on the system as spec'd in the manual. The fluid level dropped about 200ml so in my case there was a substantial amount of air that couldn't be removed through the steering wheel.

PS pump was silent though and removed a slight high pitched whine that I had never been able to locate. BUT the car had steering shudder at moderate speeds up in both directions even though the groan when hot seemed to be gone.

SO, I pulled all the RP fluid out of the reservoir (didn't drain the whole system) then topped back up with Valvoline Synpower. Whine is back along with the hot groan but the shudder is gone.

I seem to be out of self help options and guess I need to start thinking about replacing the PS pump.

Chromie, what do you reckon?

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: 77CVT on November 01, 2006, 04:54:19 PM

Quote

.... Just look at the conversion on some C3s (and I hate saying this) the drag link is often fit at an angle that is wrong. ........

;51

And these people are supposed to be "engineers"!!  :b2

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on November 01, 2006, 05:49:30 PM

Hi ZEDohSIX
Be careful of what oils you use:mmm
I use TQ111 by castrol or anglomoil;43
Some oils can cause chaddering some can make the pump noisy especially oils that are thicker than the recommended type;53
If your pump was quiet before you flushed the oil I would suggest doing the flush again with the correct oil;35
If the pump has always been noisy the replace the pump;42

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Chromie on November 01, 2006, 05:54:18 PM

Hi77CVT
Yes unfortunatly some engineers/mechanics are more interested in a quik buck;50
rather than a good job and good reputation for good work:luv
Often a more expensive repair is a cheaper repair over time;35
Cheap repair fail easily or far earlier than an expensive repair;37
If a vehicle is repaired correctly it will have a very long life to the extent that it will not have to be done again thus it is a cheaper repair over time;29;29;29;29

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: david_moore on November 01, 2006, 05:54:25 PM

Gyday 77CVT, did I see you on TV in one of those Tarmac Rallies? I was sure it was someone from the Queensland Corvette Club that was at Oran Park at Easter this year. I was v jealous when I saw the action on telly, and it looked unreal.
Bit of a mystery this power steering issue with some C4s and ZEDohSIX C5. I must admit I had given up and admitted defeat after dealing with many mechanics, engineers and "professionals". Not the first time, well not often I give up but have solved many a problem myself and/or with the help of like minded souls. chromie, a wealth of info and writes better than service manuals, with VO, ZEDohSIX on the job, this has gotta be good.
I have a couple of stories when dealing with engineers etc which have been developed into anecdotes(?) which are great at dinner parties (nasal tones here). But yeah, a good laugh. I would love to name names, but inappropriate(?). I gotta say tho mechanics, engineers etc often do their very best and cannot be expected to know everything.
Put it this way, electricians next to mechanics are natural born liars, cheats and scoundrels, some better than others, but as a rule, mostly ok. Dare I say it, I know this as I am an electrical fitter/mechanic!;42

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Shane Finn on November 01, 2006, 06:30:12 PM

Chromie,

The pump has been quiet for 4 years and started playing up on Saturday at the Leadfoot Challenge. I drove hard all day on the Friday at the open practice day without any issue.

The problem I started with is the pump groaning after moderate load (1.5 laps of Winton). It quiets down when it cools down. I checked the fluid and apart from being a dirty brown colour it had a permanent froth. That's what started me with the fluid change.

These things have to fail at some time and mine might have been Friday.

Does anyone know if the C5 PS pump is common with something sold in Australia or do I need to import one?

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: 77CVT on November 02, 2006, 09:42:59 AM

Quote

Gday 77CVT, did I see you on TV in one of those Tarmac Rallies? I was sure it was someone from the Queensland Corvette Club that was at Oran Park at Easter this year. I was v jealous when I saw the action on telly, and it looked unreal.

I was on telly???  I gave it a good run but was worried I'd have no brakes so I only went at 75%.  I'd love to see the video of the weekend!!

Cheers

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: david_moore on November 02, 2006, 07:11:09 PM

Can not remember the tv station it was on, I reckon you should enquire with who organised it. The footage was mostly other cars but I did go off when I spotted a Corvette. From memory the times were not to far off the top. At the time of viewing I assured everyone thavettewoodawun-;50yacahns

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: MADVET on March 10, 2007, 09:59:46 PM

So VO, Zedohsix, did you get to the bottom of this? Was it the type of oil used, the pump, the lines or maybe all of them? Mine also suffered from the dreaded "track day whine" and as i'm in the process of re-installing my steering pump and accessories, i'm curious to know how you guys went with this.



          ;54

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Shane Finn on March 11, 2007, 08:25:43 PM

I sorted my issues with a replacement of the fluid back to as close as I could get to original specs with available fluids. While I had things apart I fixed a weeping hose which had been annoying me.

In the end I used RedLine fluid and have donated the RP to some of my fellow Vetters to see if it was any use to them.

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: Vette Obsessed on March 11, 2007, 10:03:26 PM

Quote

Originally posted by MADVET
So VO, Zedohsix, did you get to the bottom of this? Was it the type of oil used, the pump, the lines or maybe all of them? Mine also suffered from the dreaded "track day whine" and as i'm in the process of re-installing my steering pump and accessories, i'm curious to know how you guys went with this.



          ;54

Good timing MADVET, I was thinking about bouncing this today.

My car has spent alot of down time off the road since November for various reasons, largely due to a power steering leak and llack of time to fix it.  Last night I finally resolved the leaky line issue and am yet to see if the changes to the system I have made have made any difference when putting the system under load with spirited driving.

As it stands today my system is just about bled now - no solutions but it looks like we're closer.  There are a few other people doing their own homework at the same time and I also have a few other changes that I'll look into if the noise persists, I'll keep you guys posted of what I find.

(FYI at the moment I am thinking the issue in my case is either the pump or the lines still)

Title: Power steering issue
Post by: MADVET on March 12, 2007, 06:11:01 PM

Thanks guys, i might give that redline stuff a go myself. I'll report back on how it goes after the next track day.




;42