NSW Corvettes

Technical Tips => Electrical-Electronics-Air-Lighting-Guages-Security-Vacuum => Topic started by: Vettech on January 13, 2019, 06:25:03 PM

Title: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on January 13, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
Many moons ago, like about 25 years worth, whilst looking to rebuild a faulty Car A/C, I was impressed by what was then called ER12, a much better drop in for the old R12 refrigerent gas which most cars used. Refrigerent 12 or R12 or Freon were  Du Pont companies product and patented worldwide.
At the time R134a had been introduced to remove R12 for enviromental reasons, in Europe the virtues of ER12 were exaulted, but was not a DuPont product so was given bad press and I believe banned in the US since it is made from Butane and Pentane. (NSW followed suit like a lap dog).

Now R134a is going the same way - it too is no good for the world. My 90 is giving troubles with it's A/C, now because 90's used the newer barrier hoses, its easy to change the ports, and thus change to R134a.

But some research shows:
1. The NSW ban on ER12 was been rescinded.
2. The cost of R134a is ridiculous.
3. You need a license  for R134a - (ummm - but I still have a contact.)
But:
1. A new type of ER12 called Hychill 30 made in Oz is now available.
2. No license required, since its virtually BBQ gas.
3. They have a suitable Oil and Solvent flush to suit
4. Much cheaper.
5. I can get it from Bursons.
6. You use less (30% less).
7. Operates at lower pressures,  temperatures, reduced load on compressor, engine, hoses, condensor etc

So why upgrade to R134a which you know is being phased out, and Hychill 30 is better all round. Good question.

Well very soon I'll find out, I'll try to get some Monday. Then the fun will begin.
(I knew that set of compound A/C gauges and manifold would come in handy)
Now  all I have to do is find the Vacuum pump.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Scott on January 15, 2019, 08:32:45 AM
I did a bit of reading on Hychill.  A lot of air con guys say it's crap and will burn out the compressor, but the guys using it in old R12 cars for decades seem to have zero issues...  Sounds like a lot of scare campaigning going around.  It was banned due to being a flammable hydrocarbon that may leak and catch fire in a crash.  There's zero evidence of this actually happening it seems, plus the R134 + oil is flammable anyway...
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on January 15, 2019, 11:34:37 AM
Correct Scott. and people sitting in the back seat of a Sydney Cab seem to forget about the 50, 60 or so litres of LPG right behind there back.

The amount of refrigerant actually in side the fire wall would be a small portion of the total 300˜400gms  in the system.
R12 and R134a systems can run several pounds, it was nothing back in the day to pop into Kmart and pick up a 1pound tin of R12 for a couple of bucks.

These were aerasol type tins that were either top or side punctured, what gas did not go into the system ALWAYS ended up leaking away.
 
People also forget that R12 when sprayed thru a naked flame produces one of the WW1 trench gases - Phosgene - very deadly.

On Compressor failure - I'd hazard a guess that the reason for conversion to Hychill or even to R134a was because of internal issues that were never cleaned and flushed out at the time of conversion - or Rec'dryers not replaced etc etc.

I'm stymied at the moment - Bursons the major outlet in Syd had a rush prior to Xmas and are out of stock. In the meantime I'll vac the system  and or check for leaks.

 
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Scott on January 16, 2019, 01:11:43 PM
Hychill also had a factory fire late last year that may have slowed supply.  All back and running now apparently.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 11, 2019, 10:40:00 PM
Correct Scott, the fire destroyed the aerosol size can production line. Back running now I tink.

Was looking for a 4.5kg gas bottle with UV dyetell, none avail, but Bursons now had some of the 425gm aerosol cans (no dyetell).

Bit the bullit, bought a can - @425gms it represents approx a third of the R12 charge, umm exactly enough for now.

Now where is that Edwards HiVac vacuum pump, 1000 tiles and 20 chooks later I found it.

But allas it is very low on Pump Oil. Bugger. Im not prepared to destroy the pump, so we will wait a little longer.

Hopefully I'll have oil tomorrow, the 90's system sucked down, maybe hold over nite, then re-gas on Wednesday.

Now only time will tell. And yes I have not drained, flushed, or replaced anything, not even the Accumulater.
It will be interesting.......
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: MY081 on March 12, 2019, 11:28:03 AM
20 CHOOKS ??????????????
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 12, 2019, 05:29:43 PM
20 CHOOKS ??????????????

apparently AC is specified in chook power for the output ratings .
This came about  during the American civil war when horses were scarce.

you know that old song

Well, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
 And they ran through the bushes where the chook  couldn't go
Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: gtc on March 12, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
20 CHOOKS ??????????????

See what happens when you egg them on?
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 12, 2019, 09:12:07 PM
Eggonomics an important environmental tool
Bfit
 
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: gtc on March 12, 2019, 10:36:34 PM
I shelled out for a lecture called 'Free Range Eggonomics' by Al Bumen. I thought it was a complete yolk. Strictly for the birds.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 12, 2019, 10:41:36 PM
Ahhhh people with time on their hands.

You know in life there are certain sights , sounds and smells that allways stay with you.

The indicator in petrol that gives it colour and smell.

The odorant in towngas, gives it smell.
 
Transmission fluid colour and smell

And now today after  cleaning out my Vacpump, flushing, re-oiling, the smell of that oil comes rushing back.
I managed to get it everywhere, washing does not get rid of  the smell,  OMG I'd forgotten how much I hate it.

Any way by 8pm I had the 90 evaced -30" of mercury, gauges look good, tomorrow we will see.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Rusty nuts on March 13, 2019, 05:15:08 AM
no need to get into a foul mood or to get your feathers ruffled ,over this we have got plenty of choocks to pluck.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 13, 2019, 04:38:00 PM
I'm not interested in all this tom foolery etc etc.


I'm now NOT happy................
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 13, 2019, 04:58:46 PM
that's being a some what   poultry
Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 15, 2019, 04:07:51 PM
Well  evacuated the system to -30" mercury, held vac over nite.

Wacked in 1/2 a can of gas.

System started running, cool vent air, but was cycling very quickly, so put in more gas, system then shut down.

Switch off, look for cause, no power to  comp clutch.

With engine on,  A/C on, hot wired it, clutch & cycling switch & hi press switch all OK.

But no 12volts coming from the A/C Clutch Relay, in fact I cant even find the relay ????

So! Currently I have two (2) issues. (For now!).
1. System short cycling, could be low gas, but since it is sucking down into neg values, it's most likely a blockage, Orific tube 1st suspect.
2. No Power, need to find the relay and fix this first.

To fix, clean, replace the orific tube requires opening the system, loss of gas, re-vac the system etc etc....

DOES ANY ONE KNOW WHERE A/C RELAY IS  .?
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 15, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
They say follow the money .
In this case follow the cable from the clutch , one! would think it would go to the relay  if you power up the clutch end  and follow the live wire you should come to the relay sooner or later.

Now you being an ex telecommunication engineerical  person I would think you may have a tone generator that just may help find the elusive relay.

Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 15, 2019, 04:58:22 PM
Now here I was saying what a good Engineer you are, I may have to always include the word Mechanical.

We dont want 12volts going the wrong way, cause somewhere in there is the ECM.

However an Oscilator, sorry tone generator, in the form of an "F Set"  now that is worth some thought. The special detector and reciever can pick up the in-audible tone inside the loom, doors, walls floors. Ummmm magic.

Oh! I can see it - over the other sidè of the garage, over the 87, past the boxes of 3000 tile, over the 78 where the killer chooks roost, ummm where are the mice hiding, seems tobe less of them since we got the new cat.....

Na - this is all too much for me, I think I'll go peel some spuds for tea before the Boss gets home.
   are
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 15, 2019, 05:32:46 PM
There is a reason I have most of the wiring out of my C3 dash . something to do with a brown wire being  plugged into a black wire at night in the dark.

Turn ignition on, and then brown wire is now live to earth  interesting results.
first there is a sensual pollution, ( a smell ) then there is  visual pollution ,( smoke ) then  some audible pollution ( Noise )
then there is a decision, turn the f'er off, then there is the lets redo the wiring scenario. 
Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: MY081 on March 15, 2019, 07:33:25 PM
KILLER  CHOOKS !!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 15, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
KILLER  CHOOKS !!!!!!!!!!

Pluck m
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 15, 2019, 09:28:22 PM

Yes Ray, not all chooks are fledged the same.

Those baked lemon greek style spuds were great.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 16, 2019, 01:14:51 PM
Thank God for Google.

It appears the newer the cars the more sophisticated they are.

So after reading some more it appears that the short cycling may be induced by the ECM.
It detects low gas and goes into a rapid cycling phase to test gas level, to double check if low it will then not run the Comp so as to ensure the Comp is not stuffed.

This cant be changed unless the Battery is removed so as to reset the ECM. This is better than opening the system.
If it stops raining - I'll give this a go. stayed tuned.

BUT FRESHLY JUST ADDED.
A check of the car, shows the A/C controll head has a flashing light,  interogation of the code indicates "09" - "Low Gas". Yes Yes Yes.....
Rain go away......
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 16, 2019, 01:47:30 PM
Thank God for Google.

It appears the newer the cars the more sophisticated they are.

So after reading some more it appears that the short cycling may be induced by the ECM.
It detects low gas and goes into a rapid cycling phase to test gas level, to double check if low it will then not run the Comp so as to ensure the Comp is not stuffed.

This cant be changed unless the Battery is removed so as to reset the ECM. This is better than opening the system.
If it stops raining - I'll give this a go. stayed tuned.

BUT FRESHLY JUST ADDED.
A check of the car, shows the A/C controll head has a flashing light,  interogation of the code indicates "09" - "Low Gas". Yes Yes Yes.....
Rain go away......

I think your spending to much time alone with this car.
Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 16, 2019, 02:37:11 PM
Maybe, I feel better now esp after a nice serve of Cabbage rolls with Lemon Tater for lunch.

Oh! NO NO NO a tow truck has just rolled up with the Boys Beamer on the back. Why me ?

 :grr: :banghead:
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 16, 2019, 07:45:43 PM
Arrr the advantages of the benevolent father in-law
Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Scott on March 18, 2019, 08:46:42 AM
The curse of being handy. (or competent)
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 18, 2019, 05:19:07 PM
Incompetent is probably more correct.
Anyway Beamer needs new radiator, problem with cars with plastic radiator tanks, anyway a glue job should get me down to JENSENS.

Reset the vett, A/c working, put more gas in, went for a drive down to Picton. A/c worked fine.

See attatched pic.

BUT on way home A/c went off, once again exhibiting short cycling, indicitive of low gas, but gas is O K.

At approx time of failure went over a series of hard road join bump type thingo's.  Ummmm 7km down the road after more bumps, I reset A/c and its fine.

Ummmm if it detects low gas, then it must be sucking down too far, maybe the bumps have dislodged muck into the Orific Tube, causes blockage.

Umm may have to bight the bullit, and open the system, chuck the Orific tube and replace it, flush the Evap with solvent.
Solvent is expensive, so maybe I'll relent and pay some one to do it.

 :grr:
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: MY081 on March 18, 2019, 10:34:17 PM
Picton should have called in . Free Beer !!!!
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 19, 2019, 05:58:19 PM
Thought of you !

Now you tell me......
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 21, 2019, 05:16:47 PM
Suspect Orifice Tube, so I degasses, found it, got it out.

See pic below.

Hard to tell colour, the colour means that the tube thru the centre approx where the "O ring" is located will have an Orifice.

Five sizes from 0.047 thru to 0.067"  This looks black from the Oil and aluminium discolouration.

Not as much gunk as I hoped, but out now, so in with a new one.
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 24, 2019, 06:21:17 PM
After my last post I was ready to burn it, however, it now has a new OTube albeit a 0.062" and it would appear that the original white GM Otube shoud be 0.072" anyway its in and regassed to what is calculated ˜340gms. BUT was still giving short sycles and "low gas alarm". AGAIN...

So today I decided the computer is correct - I'm wrong sorry not correct.

Put the gear on - ran up to temp, slopped some more gas in, now low side is ˜30psi and high at 180psi. (must be close to 400gms Hychill -30)

Compressor would cycle off at 22,5psi (normal R12 Pressure), now stays on, runs great - cool as ICE inside the cab.

Went for my test drive, stayed cool, it even rained so I could test the screen defrost.

HOWEVER this has highlighted the fact that even though the fan is screeming, the amount of air flow leaves a lot to be desired.

This can be left to a later date, but if anyone out there has a 90 or so C4 and could comment on the air flow - it would be appreciated.
These settings in the Mustang would freeze you, esp if you have the seat also switched on.

Except for all the forthcoming praise I suspect this topic is now closed. (fingers and toes crossed)


Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 24, 2019, 06:44:28 PM
Just when you thought it is over..

When I get back from the Nats - I can spend some time on the 87.

Because it is a mirror conversion, I may look for an early Commodore  A/C  package, from memory they look identicle but off course the unit is on the LH side.

My pet hate with conversions is the loss of "outside" air flow, maybe a Commodore unit will allow this feature.

Be good to get some clean air flow thru the car, esp to dry out and remove odours and moisture.

Regards
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: bfit on March 24, 2019, 08:25:49 PM
Sounds like a lot of latent heat to me.
Bfit
Title: Re: A/C was R12 then R134a - now what Hychill 30.
Post by: Vettech on March 26, 2019, 03:27:28 PM
Well just returned from a trip out west.

The car went great.

The A/C went even better - tested in all modes, all temps etc etc.

However the fan/air speed and flow will need attention.

Since this requires seat out, under dash pads out and person jambed head first up under dash, it can wait, I think its realy time now to enjoy the fruits..

The run to Qld will be the acid test, no failures will be a good recommendation of Hychill -30.

Regards.