C4 1987 and the Smell of Leaking Fuel.

[Vettech]

Well 12 months ago upon returning from getting a Pink slip, she blew the coolant into passenger footwell.
All that and the Power Steer pump overhauled, it's once again time for a pink slip.
Whilst the car is still running like a dog, all systems checked out fine YESTERDAY.
Started up today, reverse up and out of the garage, hang on! What's that puddle on the garage floor, roughly under #5 cylinder?
 
A quick paddle in the puddle and a feel and sniff of the reddish fluid confirmed fresh fuel, but from where ?
The fuel lines are down the RH side, up the front of the engine, into the fuel rail, towards the rear into the LH rail, then to the front, thence via the return line.

Matching leak with car/engine confirms its about pot 5 or 7, at a quick guess its an injector or fuel rail....

But I have no choice but to proceed to get it pink slipped (booked time safety check). I quickly moved the fire extinguisher from rear storage to the passenger seat, but trip to Minto all good and she passed, at this point the Mechanic and I had a concerted look for the culprit, which in the bad light appears to he a  tiny rubber hose at the engine rear approx under the Dizzy.

I would have been absolutely dissapointed if the problem was in an easy to access position, at this point in life, I don't really have copious spare quanties of AB- transmission fluid (blood) to spare, and these sharp tight contorted spaces always ends in blood letting.

So car now home, it did not burn, but could have easily if only I could find the lighter !.

Thats all for now - time for research and cold amber beverage.

[billc]

        Hi Vettech.  check and make sure it is fuel, My 89, RHD has a small dia coolant line that runs from near the heater box at the firewall up behind the engine to the inlet manifold next to the dissy.  underneath the fuel rail . If you run pink coolant  it could be mistaken for fuel , if it is a coolant leak from the hose ,good luck getting to the hose clamp , not a job I'm looking forward to on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                      Bill Crealy

[Vettech]

Message.

[Vettech]

Appologies, I got my facts a little confused, the fuel pressure line enters the RH fuel rail which has balance tubes at each end to the LH rail, ergo the fuel flows equally into both rails giving equal fuel pressure to all eight (8) injectors.
However sitting in the middle of the rear balance tube is the fuel pressure regulator, and under spring and vacumm control it bypasses fuel back to the tank and maintains 38~40 psi in the rails. (Or there abouts)

Thank you Bill for your observations. Once upon a time I loved the smell of naphalm in the morning, now days I cant stand the smell of fuel. Comes from wearing a younger mans cloths and owning a souped up Austin c/w warnerford manifold and twin 1&3/4" S.U 's.
People hated them, but once understood, setup & alligned they worked great.

Back to the story, upon a closer inspection, contrary to my Mechanic, the fuel is coming out of the thin metal fuel line at the rear of the LH rail, which feeds the ninth (9) injector - Yes thats correct - "the Ninth Injector". ie. The cold start injector.
Refer to the pic I posted, tube is 101, and has an "O'ring" at each end - o'ring 104 at this point appears tobe the culprit. I was dreading removing the Regulator, which requires pulling the manifold apart to get access underneath, maybe I can pull the Dizzy and have enough access to fix it, the Dizzy is not sitting correctly 90° across the engine, so needs tobe pulled and re-aligned anyway - two birds!..

[Vettech]

One thing I did note when I started her up, she ran like a dog, in fact worse than before, I could hear sparking HT, then I remembered, I'd removed leads 1 & 2 from the Dizzy for a better view, the car still ran, #2 going nowhere, whilst 1 was jumping a 1/2" gap to the manifold - anyway I need to fix the fuel issue first - then the timing & ignition.

[Vettech]

Last night I went to bed feeling better, but today upon researching removal of cold start valve & tube assy, not so good.
By the book it appears to be one of those jobs that starts by jacking the car & removing the wheels etc etc.................etc

Pic of the tube / valve assy including the culprit 104 "O ring" is attatched. Not having really touched an injector before, but looking at the pic I would assume undoing the nut at rail end and somehow (?) moving that little clip on top of the injector (cold start valve) would unlock the tube from the injector allowing it tobe unplugged ------- YES !?

Anyone can feel free to chine in here with words and intelligent pearls of wisdom............... I'll wait..................

[Vettech]

Bill have a look at these two pics, is the line your refering to the rusty looking tube into the rear bottom of the manifold/plenum ? My culprit is under and behind, looked easy in the book, but..... not so.

The other pic is top of the fuel feed tube onto the cold start injector - the book shows a neat little arm/ lever to unlock it from the injector but not visible at all.

I've not long ago ripped out, re-ran, re-newed and replaced virtually all water pipes, pump inards, thomostats etc etc etc but did not touch your pipe, I think at the time I thought it was Vacumm.........

[Vettech]

Sorry I had to split the pics.

Bill - I've now had bright leds etc, and squinty eyes looking at that rusty tube (it's actually corroded copper on my 87) - I could be wrong but looks to be Vacc feeding across to the Brake booster, I'm sure when I yank the booster end it moves at the plenum.

Anyway I'll be able to be more conclusive (soon not today) when I pull the Dizzy up and out.

[billc]

           Yes ,the "rusty" tube on my 89 goes to the brake booster. the hose I was talkng about starts out as a steel tube about 5 inches long from a " T " piece, ( I'm old school ) on the heater hoses next to the heater box. I the clamps to a rubber hose running between the dizzy and the firewall to the rear of the inlet manifold between the dizzy and the EGR tube. I have the GM1989 Service manuals, but they dont show this hose. the closest drawing is on page 6B-11 and shows " T " piece in heater outlet hose 2  near the heater

[Vettech]

Well after looking at the books and the engine, I've convinced myself that I can get the Cold Start fuel feed pipe assy off the car without removing the manifold & plenum.
1. Pull the Dizzy off.
2. Remove the rusty copper pipe assy.
3. Either pull the black square plastic wiring duct out OR remove LH valve cover.
4. Release the fitting off the Cold Start Valve (injector)
5. Unscrew the other end of pipe assy from the LH fuel rail.
6. The assy should come out, if not I should have enough clearance to retrieve 104 ( O'ring )
7. Replace O'ring and maybe also the O'ring located on other end of assy that seals the pipe to CS valve.
8. Reverse 1 thru 7. Done

All this " bates the question ". Its 30++ years old - one lousey O'ring has failed - WHY ???  When and iff will the plephora of other O'rings and seals in the Intake Manifold, Runners and fuel rails fail. Or am I just lucky.

I need to drive it - time and tide stands still for no man, so we will try this small quick fix.

[sirfixalot]

Doug the copper pipe is the vacuum feed to the brake booster, looks like yours has been shortened  in conversion mine has a bracket on rear of head with a bolt in it which is a bugger to get in and out. From memory getting the plug and clip off 9th injector is a pain. No experience taking out injector, Have you checked  the fuel regulator diaphragm hasn't split running rough is a symptom of this as fuel is sucked into vacuum side of diaphragm which then dumps extra fuel into motor. Try removing vacuum hose from regulator to see if fuel present, also can put vacuum pump onto it to see if it holds vacuum.I believe you can't remove the regulator without removing the plenum


 

[Vettech]

Yes! Thats about right, now waiting for a cooler day, so I can pull the thing down, and whilst I understand your direction of a split in the diaphram - i'm not allowing that.

On another tact, Bill Mavramatis was kind enough to return my calls regarding the Fly wheel/ harmonic balancer.

Many moons ago (20yrs worth) the Flywheel retaining bolt came out of the crank, the Fw was kept in place by the sepentine belt and the bolt was kept in place by the crossmember, how long this situation was going for - I dont know, but when I saw it, my blood pressure dropped thru the floor. Anyway a full repair was effected by Bill at Bills Car Care at Marrickville.

But for some reason (inc other mechanics) I now have a Dizzy not square across the engine - and it should be.

Bill confirmed that the repair put the Fw back onto it's keyed position on the crank, Dizzy could be one tooth out.
So! I have no excuse not to pull the Dizzy, maybe when done, it will be square once again, and the crossfire of #1 or #2 leads to the manifold will be resolved.

[sirfixalot]

I checked out my fuel reg the other day I figured if diaphragm was defective it wouldn't hold vacuum. Was as easy as hooking up pump to vacuum side it pulled down to 30 without any problem.Your car has all symptoms for defective fuel reg. Have you checked for fault codes on computer? Maybee just check before you dive in head first. Cant see how o ring would leak /tear when nothing moves and it is encapsulated in manifold.

[Vettech]

Yes I agree - how does one "Oring" give up, ergo when will the others ?
Anyway, see pics, removed leads, then Dizzy cap, then brake booster vac line.
The tube nut was ~19mm, but fitting was ~20mm, short of making a very thin open ender, I could not break the nut away from the gland and as a result, I kept unwinding untill the whole assy came clear, then with plenty of room I used a shifter & 19mm open ender on the tube nut.

Oh! P.S - I did switch on the ignition, when I had a clear view - and fuel came straight out of the pipe seal.

[Vettech]

Pic.
I was surprized I had enough space to get this apart. I also had issues getting the Dizzy cap as the fourth (4th) cap screw was in behind the fire wall rubber seal, where is one of those bendy 1/4" extensions when you need it - in this mess somewhere.

Now to get seals and maybe lash out to get correct tools - then re-align the Dizzy.

[sirfixalot]

So which o ring was leaking the large one into block or the one on pipe with compression nut ?

[Vettech]

Yes the small dia compression one. See pic - but does not look like an "O" ring - more barrel shaped.

But has been there a long time - cant see any of those two "O rings" avail from US suppliers.

At this time anyone can chine in with a local (Oz) supplier ....... um.

[Kenobe]

  Hi Doug, try HSA (Hydraulic Seal Australia) ph 02 9725 1100 @ Unit 10 / 504 Victoria Street Wetherill Park.
If they don't have it, they can make it,
Cheers from Kenobe 

[Vettech]

Thankyou Obe One - ill try them on Wed or Thursday.

AND - Sirfixalot think positive - its not allowed to be in the fuel regulator.
At the end of the day there must be a part of this car that I dont have to rip apart.

However I'll look at the vac/pressure before I put it back together.

[sirfixalot]

Ponti world have an injector fuel rail  o- ring kit for $20 or buy a kit of nitrile o - rings off ebay. I got some o- rings from a fuel injection guy and he just gave me green ones hence why I bought a kit for future use