C4 Power Steering Noise Issues

[Vettech]

As you may know, I've been working on the heater which turned into nearly the whole car.
Everything is back, including a now repaired passenger seat, dash and all the moving bits on the front of the engine.
After some hit and miss, its running, but when fully fitted with the serpentine belt, we get a noise which gets worse if we turn the steering wheel either way. No work was carried out on the pump, rack & steering gear. The pump just lay in the bottom whilst I worked above. Prior to work there was no noise or steering issues.

With RH conversion, another rack is fitted, the Res bottle and pump remain in their original positions. However many years ago I modified the Res bottle, turning it 90°, so the hoses came out and across the car  - not out directly into the pump pulley face. This situation has worked fine with better clearances all round.

But the hoses were not originals, obviously something made to just work. They are give or take 30yrs old. I can see the Res to pump input hose has at least two kinks, and is bleeding a minute amount of fluid. The noise I assume is the pumps reaction to not being able to draw sufficient oil in, to supply the required high pressure feed to the rack. I dont believe a pump working fine one minute, sits for a month or 15, then fails upon reuse. The system was not drained, and has remained sealed. The HP hose has multiply metal adaptors, fittings, bends etc to get it out of the pump and across to the RH side, passing extremely close between the pump pulley and the fly wheel. (In fact it has chaffing)

So member, have you had a steering PUMP issue, with LOUD Noises - nearly like a buzz saw when engine rev'd.
Any thoughts or things you did to overcome this type of problem would be appreciated - and NO! I'm not selling it.
Regards.

[MY081]

When i raced my vette it sometimes would make the noise your talking about . It was caused by the fluid get hot and agitating (not your problem ) sounds like its starving for fluid .Ray

[Vettech]

Thanks for the reply Ray.

I like to analyse problems before ripping them apart, and with Res to Pump feed pipe looking soggy and kinked I tend to agree its most likely cavitation due it not getting enough fluid in. Sounds like when you drive the rack to the N stop and it gives a howl but a bit louder.

Trouble now is getting another hose, as I said the pump and Res are in their original positions, so an original off the shelf hose should do the job. I dont think I can use Ordinary straight hose as it does some loop the loops getting from Res to pump.

I can see them in the States for $13 ~ $35 USD. (+ you guessed it - freight / postage / f#×%&)

Ummm.... I now have a tube bender, maybe some nice 5/8" copper bent around the several curves, with short rubber hose joiners clamped in place - but I can't get 5/8" copper or brass olives, I used 3/4" on my coolant water "T" piece, cutting a section out, reducing the dia and silver soldering, this gives the little raised lip for the hose to seal over and the clamp to hold securely. But my ventures into the realm of Silver Soldering has left a lot to be desired.

I'll need to defer to my mechanical advisor - The Wilton Oracle for some illuminating advise.

P.S ~ The GM part# is 14084032 - but I can't see a Dayco or Gates equiv #.

[Vettech]

Well after a lot of fishing around under the car, I managed four things.
1. Crook neck.
2. Crook back.
3. Crud falling in my eyes.
4. I'm going to have to remove everything above the Pump, ie belt, Alt, Smog pump, three support frames.

Now to google how to get the pulley off the pump, or even if I need to.!?

[Vettech]

Ummmm it needs a special albeit a very simple puller. Not available.

So now all the gear is off and pump c/w pulley is free, removed Res to pump feed Hose and some fluid flows out.

Getting tied of waiting - 20 mins and still only dripping out. Half expecting some cloggy mess in the bottom of Res bottle.

Time for a rest and a drink - but I'd hazzard a guess that pipe has delaminated internally and is blocked, leave it for now as I can do nothing more, nor get any parts. Monday maybe get the pump tested by a Power Steer Shop, after all it is 30++ yrs old.

[Vettech]

Well after an hour, its drained, I've removed the suss hose and guess what - its not a purpose made OEM hose, its a straight bit bent in a "U"  shape, which eventually has kinked at the two corners, was even hard to blow air through, so I would expect the pump caused cavitation,  plenty of Air, not enough fluid, no wonder it was screaming.

Anyway now its off - being half way there, we may as well get the pump checked by an "EXPERT" on Monday or when one opens again - no doubt in the new year.

Then the "Blue Streak Rocket Sled" will be back....

P.S In my garage search for missing trim parts, I located another Sports Seat Base, a quick electrical check shows all motors and gear box working, well at least working unloaded, wont  tell untill installed and being sat in, when car out of garage I'll be able to install it.

Regards.

[sirfixalot]

If it is just a normal piece of hose why don't you put a spring inside it to stop it collapsing or kinking

[Vettech]

Yes THEY have used a straight piece of hose.

And it's funny you should say that - I did think of this and checked out the old hose for spring inside.

However, I still have my daily driver, even though 87 is overdue for rego, I think I'll use the correct hose - yes I'm being pedantic, but I'm sure this will pay dividends in the future, besides I've now removed all this gear on the front of the engine so many times, I'm fed up with it, esp if I get the drivers seat fully functional, I'll just want to get in and drive....

P.S the old hose is bleeding fluid, its soggy, its rotten - like me - past it's use by date.

But now I have pump, hoses etc fully out I can give some thought to my copper pipe suggestion, but for now the Cricket is on ....

[Vettech]

Well I made an impromptu visit to the "Wilton Oracle" today, taking my PS pump, and a few items he wanted a loan of.
In quick time we went from "yep it looks ok" to its now in a thousand pieces, OMG whats that tiny bit on the floor.
After much ado - we sorry he had it back together, tested (sort of), and ready to go back into car.

I just need to figure out if I have enough blood left in my hands & arms, to allow me to get down into the bowels of the motor where all the sharp & nasty bits are located. I'll try to get a pic up, as I have made a copper Tube for the suction line (Res into Pump) which will interconnect via short pieces of 16mm rubber hose, this will allow absorption of vibration, long life and confidence.

It turns out that the tricky part is getting the mount bolts out, since they are located behind the pulley, which REALLY needs to come off before the Ali frame is removed from the engine. A PULLER IS REQUIRED - its a simple design, but is quick & easy and will save lots of time, skin, blood a lost tempers........ 

[Vettech]

The pump was re-installed but the issue / screeching / no power etc was still there. New parts ordered.

After much ado, my U.S order has arrived, this pack includes a Power Steering Pump (PSP) seal kit.

This kit consists of 4 O'Rings, 1 Shaft seal. After many Youtubes we feel ready to have another go at it.
Also a Tool Kit - courtesy of my daughter, arrived - el cheapo 12 piece PSP Puller kit, leaves a lot to be desired.

Everything removed from vehicle - I went to see the "Wilton Oracle", I think he was glad to see me, well not me persay - but the PSP which after our last failed attempt left us both longing for a Correct Outcome. In a flash he had it apart, new Orings and seals fitted and put back together. This time we would give it a BETTER testing.

Driven by Batt drill, it quickly showered us both with Power Steer Fluid - didnt do that last time - with only a few revs it burst into life.
The first time we rebuilt the PSP we did not have an exact kit, one O'ring was not replaced, and the ones we did looked close enough,  so we did a complet strip and replaced all O'rings, the culprit was hard, square, crumbly - also the shaft seal was hard and suss. With this the "Oracle" had a much happier look on his face.

Now to fit it into the 87, fingers crossed. The kit is a "Gates" part.

[Vettech]

Update

Well the pump was fitted, all appeared A-OK. Start the engine.
We had none of the screeming like last time when at idle or revved, however upon turning we had PS growl, not as loud as before. Maybe trapped air.

Took her for a spin, on the straight & narrow its great, but all turning was accompanied by PS growling. Did the usual lock to lock several times to expell any air. Still growling. Parked, went inside to scream.

After a while I saw PS fluid on X member under pump, Oh! NO. Cant be still a leaking pump. Cleaned it up and tested for the source but the pump, in & out hoses etc were as dry as. Went for another test run, still growling, parked up, refilled fluid as now low.

Went for a cuppa, maybe if I calm down. Came back out, now fluid running down the driveway, not from pump - but pump resouvior, because of car incline it was dropping clear of the X member, straight to the ground.

The lower resouvior port which feeds fluid into pump was leaking, the hose clamp was gone !?. Cleaned up again, fit new clamp, without losing all the new fluid, run car, the growl is gone, once again clearly indicating how a SMALL suckion leak can cause the fluid to be hyper ventilated, frothing up and causing the growl.
If left, this condition will cause cavitation in the pump and thence damage.

The car is out of the garage (don't tell B - she'll want to put the Mustang in there) - now for a pink slip.
I suppose she'll want those 3000 tiles laid now.

Oh! Did I mention engine has a strange miss - running on seven (7) ummm another job.

[MY081]

MISS could be stale fuel and has killed a spark plug . X BRICKIES GUESS . Ray

[Vettech]

Tks Ray - it is very possible.

However I can actually see the miss, in a dark garage engine running, a lead is visually arking across to the top of the intake plenum.

Hopefully only one.

[Vettech]

Just a note - from the web there seemed to be many opinions on fluid types.
ATF or PSF - if using PSF then is it mineral base, Partial Synthetic or Full Synthetic.

The Wilton Oracle uses NULON Full Synthetic in many types of pump application.

I opted for NULON Full Synthetic MVPSF. (Only because PEP's did not have the earlier version)

This is a multi vehicle PSF and covers several GM Spec Codes.

The steering is as quiet as, and is very smooth and as light as a feather, it's amazing how you get used to worsening conditions esp if those changes are slow and methodical.
Its back to being a very responsive rocket sled.

Now for Rego - easy !?!? - rubbish, three (3) times rejected for Hplates. Different person each time - different reason - all trivial..

[Kenobe]

  How did you go with the hole punch set? did it do the job? 

[Vettech]

To be honest - Ive not used it as yet.

I pulled the pump right down - very basic - but cant find material thin and strong and just elastic enough to fill the bill.

Web searches show some pump makers - one out Penrith way makes diaphrams.

But other issues (sons & daughters suddenly leaving home, power steering  & health) have delayed me.

I'm firmly of the opinion what the last segment of life is to be for - yes you guessed it - paying Doctor & Specialist Fee's.

I'm at the stage where I have to be carefull when and how much I drink, else it sprays out all the needle holes etc I'm leaking like a sponge.