NSW Corvettes

General Discussion Area => General Chat => Topic started by: Camo on December 11, 2013, 04:17:49 PM

Title: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Camo on December 11, 2013, 04:17:49 PM
Story Summary
Holden to shut Adelaide operations by 2017
As early as yesterday, Holden chief executive Mike Devereux said no decision had been made
Acting Prime Minister Warren Truss said the decision was "made in Detroit"

HOLDEN will close its Australian operations, including Elizabeth in 2017, with the loss of 2900 jobs, the company has told its South Australian workforce.
In a statement, the company says it will discontinue vehicle and engine manufacturing by the end of 2017 and significantly reduce engineering operations in Australia.
About 1600 positions at the Elizabeth plant will go, and 1300 in Victoria.

Read More Here (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/gm-to-name-mary-barra-ceo-as-holden-decision-nears/story-fnda1bsz-1226780247370)
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Jethro on December 11, 2013, 08:27:38 PM
What a crying shame  :tears: :tears: As a tradesmen long off the tools it's a crying shame to have seen the demise of manufacturing in Australia go down the shyte shute over the last 20 odd years. I'm only a simple person but have always lost to Fadden why we the smallest country in the world have to lead the way in zero import duties, carbon emission, aid to other countries, yadda yadda yadda only at the detriment of our manufacturing and small businesses :tears: :tears:

Why is it so that a third world country like  / Korea / India / China can manufacture a Tonne of steel and import it to Australia with no import duties or tariffs and if we where the reverse the role we would have to pay import Taxes ? let alone we have to build, Wage Taxes, Medibank, Super, Hol's, Minimum wages, Loading, Penatilty rates yadda, yadda yadda.....How can we compete with that  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 11, 2013, 09:16:49 PM
Shirt jethro
Something serious I'm impressed

I agree
Steel is a good item to start with
When we quote a fabrication job with australian steel there is no hope of getting the work
This country has been going down hill since the Whitlam day
When the wages explosion of those years

We are fast heading to be a third world country
When you hirer a worker now ,
It all about there rites etc etc
And nothing about doing a good job and pride in doing a job in good  time
He first time
You mentioned tradesman
Good tradesman are few and hard to find,
I could go on
But won't , as long as politicians line their own nest first and foremost
The country is sexually interfered with
Bfit
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: raafrebel on December 11, 2013, 10:20:49 PM
Well that is terrible news. end of an erra.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: coradict72 on December 11, 2013, 10:49:02 PM
It was costing your money to keep holden alive.
Its our unfortunate we dont drive on the right side
as they could send their cars direct we would be driving chevys as we should
and other types including challengers,chargers and mustangs and of course
corvettes without the rip off conversion I still dont see the sense of destroying a perfect car.
So its good bye holden anybody that works for someone needs a backdoor you just cant rely
on a company to keep you forever especially in manufacturing you cant compete with
$1.20 and hour wages and twice the speed in making a car.Go cut grass,clean offices i did.
Will someone step up soon like a dick smith and build cars here for 10K fully optioned
or any of the other rich folk willing to pay $40 an hr for labor which a worker would want.
Gotta blame someone you really cant blame detroit have you been there lately?
I'm sure they made their inevitable  and heart felt decision to close much sooner once
the government wished it.And as they say the new detroit is thailand the real detroit is just about dead.



Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 12, 2013, 08:14:16 AM
From another forum:
 
Here is a copy of a speech that was presented at dinner in October 2012 by Mr Mark De Wit National Vice President of the FAPM ( Federation of Automotive Products Manufacturers Association ), it makes for a very interesting read.
 
The automotive industry is often referred to as the “foundation” of manufacturing, leading the sector in research, industrial design & styling, engineering & product development, testing & validation, tooling & manufacture, lean production, logistics & supply chain management.....the list goes on.
But it is under severe threat. Its survival is far from certain.
And I want to touch on why we think this is the case
Let's start by having a look at the Playing Field
• In the last few years, about 1 million cars per year have been sold in Australia.
• In 2011 Australia only produced 14% of all 1 million cars sold in this country.
• 5 years ago, this was ~20%, 10 years ago was ~30% and 20 years ago this was ~53%?
• So what has changed……. I heard some self proclaimed experts on the radio saying we are not making the right cars that people want.
• RUBBISH….in fact of the 5 platforms built in Australia (Commodore, Cruze, Falcon, Territory and Camry), in 2011, 4 were in the top 10 selling cars.
• If you add up the volume of the top 10 selling cars in 2011 it equates to only 295,212 vehicles. So even if we build every one of these top 10 in Australia, we would still only be at 29% domestically produced as a ratio to total sales.
• So we produce a meagre 14% of all vehicles sold here, but if we include all export production as well, we made ~220,000 cars in total (140k domestically produced & sold + 80k for export) - so Australian total production to total sales ratio of 22%.
• Of the 1 million cars sold here, 86% are imported, with almost all ( 95%) coming from just 4 countries. Japan accounts for 44%, Thailand 21%, Korea 20% and Germany 10%.
• Let's compare our 22% production to sales ratio to these 4 countries.
• In Japan, sales of 4.4m vehicles versus production of 8.4m vehicles (190%)
• In Thailand, sales of 800,000 vehicles versus production of 1.5m vehicles (188%)
• In South Korea, sales of 1.5m vehicles versus production of 4.7m vehicles (318%)
• In Germany, sales of 3.2m vehicles versus production of 5.9m vehicles (185%)
So why are we at 22%? Why has it come down from 53% 20 years ago? What do we have to do to get it right like these 4 countries - and many others as well - from my • research, almost every other car making country has a ratio > 50% and the majority are in triple digits
 
Let's look at the dreaded T word....Tariff's
• For any imported car into Australia, the inbound tariff applied is 5%, unless of course we have a free trade agreement with that country (which we do with Thailand and the USA, and next year, Malaysia), where the tariff becomes zero.
 
But unfortunately this isn't reciprocated in return.
• If Australia tries to send a car to Japan, there is a 10% tariff + a 5% consumer tax + technical roadblocks that make it virtually impossible to get regulatory approval to get a foreign car on their road.
• If we send a car from Australia to Germany, there is a 10% tariff + a 19% VAT (which isn't applied to EU built cars), a total of 29% versus the 5% for a German car sent here!
• If we send a car from Australia to Korea, there is a 10% tariff applied + there is a long and painful process to try and get it registered + an unwritten rule that anyone buying an imported car in Korea will likely be subjected to a tax audit
• And finally, when free trade isn't free…..Thailand send 180,000 vehicles a year into Australia (and growing) with ZERO tariff. Logically, with a free trade agreement, we should be able to send cars from Australia back to Thailand with a ZERO tariff……and we can…..BUT there is a 'duty' to be paid dependent on engine size. In essence it means that if we try and send an Aussie made car to Thailand, the 'duty' applied is anything from 50% to 80%
• The exception that appears lower is the USA, who have a 2.5% import tariff on passenger cars…….however, what many people don't realise is that the local producers in the USA make a very large number of "pick-up trucks" (like the F150 Ford, Chevy Suburban, Toyota Tacoma etc), and in fact the majority of profit for the North American producers comes from these types of vehicles……and if you want to import a pick-up truck into the USA, it attracts a 25% import tariff !! They protect their Golden Goose !!
• When our production to sales ratio 20 years ago was at 53%, tariff rates for imported cars into Australia were a high ~32% (down from their peak of 57.5% in the mid 80's) and they have been rapidly reducing ever since under the 'Button Plan'.
• More recently, they were reduced in 2005 to 10% and then again in January 2010 to 5% (effective 3.5%)
• Since the Button plan in the late 80's was devised and Australia set a path to reduce tariffs to zero, we have also seen the emergence of low cost countries as Auto producers. It is interesting to compare the import tariff should we try and send a car into one of these so called emerging countries……India 60% tariff + duty of up to a further 50%; Russia 48%; Brazil 35%, Malaysia 30%; China 43% (25% + 18% VAT). These countries are all now importing cars to Australia (at 5% or some at Zero).
• I find it interesting that the likes of China, who are now the largest Auto producing nation in the World (18 million cars/trucks produced per year and growing), with the World's second largest economy, is seen as an 'emerging' player in Automotive and can therefore justify 25% Tariffs + 18% VAT for imported cars.
 
So what about co-investments or 'hand-outs' our Government gives the Auto sector as some press label it?
 
• The annual investment from our Government into the Australian Auto sector hovers around $500 - $600 million per annum. With 23 million people in Australia, that equates to between $18 - 25 per person per year of tax payer money to help attract investment into future Auto production here.
• This economic support requires the sector to more than match these investments, so it’s certainly not all one way, hence the term co-investment.
 
What surprises many is that this is extremely low versus the rest of the Auto making world.
 
• In Germany the amount is $95 per person per annum;
• in the USA it is $260 per person per annum;
• France is $150 per person per annum……and the list goes on
 
It is a fact that Australia not only has the lowest effective Tariff rates in the Auto making world but it also has the lowest Government co-investment per capita.
 
Now combine these two factors above with an Australian dollar that historically averages $0.72 to the USD and is now 40 - 45% higher, making imports 40% more competitive and exports 40% less competitive) and it is pretty obvious why Australian produced vehicle volumes are in decline.
 
The net effect is that we have the most open Auto market in the world
 
• Did you know that more vehicle brands and models are on sale in Australia than any other country in the world (~64 brands at last count, with over 240 model variants to choose from)?
• By comparison in the USA, where they sell about 14 million cars/trucks per year (versus our 1 million), there are only 33 brands on sale! That is 14 times the amount of sales but only half the number of brands !
• 20 Years ago in Australia there were 48 brands and only 97 model variants to choose from.
 
So there's the Playing Field at present - far from level globally!
 
I put it to you that simply more of the same approach will yield the same trend we have been seeing for the last 20 years.
 
Things need to change - but what things?
 
So, should we just raise Tariff's?
• Well, my view is that, with the exception of cutting some slack for genuinely emerging countries, in a very small manufacturing market like Australia, tariffs should at least be reciprocated .That is, I have no problem scaling down to zero - as long as everyone else is doing the same. But clearly they are not. With the onset of the GFC, many nations chose to freeze their tariff positions, and in fact some (like Brazil), actually raised them to offset the effect of their high currency. Reciprocity (except for genuine emerging countries) - you can't get fairer than that. If it is 10% + 19% VAT for us to get an Aussie car into Germany, then we should have the same for German cars to Australia……Engine levy’s of 50 – 80% on Thailand cars; 25 + 18% = 43% for Chinese cars; 10% for Japanese cars etc.
• Let's have FTA's – not Free Trade Agreements BUT Fair Trade Agreements!
 
• One politician argued with me that this just raises the price of cars for Australians
• NO it doesn't - if you buy an Aussie made car …… and that is the point !
• YES it does - if you buy an imported car. However, a 5% increase in Tariff on a $35k car is a $1750 increase…….and this pales into insignificance when compared to the savings that we should be getting from the Aussie dollar appreciating 40% in the last 5 years!
• If we then continue to buy 850,000 imported cars, an average 5% increase in Tariff (back to a 10% average like most other mature Auto making countries) on an average $35,000 car, would raise Government revenue by ~$1.2 billion - which I'm sure we can all think of some good ways to spend......like improving the co-investment in Automotive to competitive levels.
 
As right and fair as I think reciprocity is, the likelihood of Governments altering the tariff path is slim......
 
So what else can be done?
 
• Well, here are 3 things.....
 
• 1) Government fleets
• Did you know the Federal, State and Local Governments + fully funded Government bodies purchased 60,000 vehicles in 2011 with taxpayer monies (down from ~100,000 in 2004 as we've tighten recent spending)
• Of these 60,000 vehicles, only 19,772 were Australian made !
• In analysing the data further, Federal Government procured about 44% local vehicles; The Vic and SA State Governments do a reasonable job (at ~70%). NSW, QLD and WA are poor at 32%, 20% and 17% respectively. Local Councils take the (poor) cake at 16%.
• An economist tried to tell me it was because Australian cars are too expensive or did not meet the Green requirements
• Well, it costs no more to purchase a Holden Cruze than a Hyundai i30 or a Mazda 3……or to purchase a Falcon EcoLPG or Toyota Camry or Holden Commordore than a Honda Accord or a Hyundai Sonata……so it is not price.
• And local products are now just as 'Green' as any imported car - we now make LPG Falcons and Commodores, diesel Cruze and Territory, Hybrid Camry, 4 cylinder Falcon…..there is NO 'Green' excuse not to buy Australian for Government fleets.
• Now, there are some special purpose vehicles that we don't make here - for example, the Police in the Northern Territory need full FWD capable vehicles - but let me be generous and say these special purpose cars may make up 25% of the 60,000 total procured……so ~45,000 vehicles (minimum) of the annual 60,000 purchased should be local made products.
• At 220,000 vehicles produced here, an increase in Government fleet purchase from ~20,000 cars to 45,000 cars (25,000 improvement) is an 11% improvement to our Australian production total………our industry would kill for that!
• and an 11% improvement in volume should create thousands of jobs!
 
• 2) Safety
• Did you know that of the 1 million cars sold here in 2011, ~30% (that's approximately ~300,000 for the mathematicians in the room) did not meet the 5-Star ANCAP safety rating.
• Every Australian made car meet the 5-Star ANCAP safety rating.
• The cost of all road accidents in Australia is estimated (by the department of infrastructure) at $18 billion/year
• So, why don't we put a penalty on new cars that don't meet 5 Star - say $2500 for each star below 5…..so a 3-Star vehicle would attract a $5000 levy.
• This would discourage purchases of less safe vehicles.
• And just a 5% improvement in the accident costs (through prevention and/or minimising injury) would mean almost $1 billion per year would be saved, not to mention the revenue generated from the levy.
• It would also have the potential effect of shrinking the number of brands and model variants - with people moving to safer (and perhaps local) models.
 
• And finally 3) Gaseous Fuels
• Australia is a net importer of Petrol / Oil.
• Despite our very high dollar, making importing cheaper, Petrol this morning rose to ~$1.64 per litre
• Many experts are projecting by 2020, petrol in Australia will be around $6/litre.
• Now, did you know that Australia is sitting on the 12th largest natural gas reserve in the world?
• and if we converted every car to run on compressed natural gas (CNG) in Australia, with our projected population growth, we would have enough of our own current known reserves to last 90 years!
• The current equivalent per litre cost is between 19 - 26 cents!
• Compared to a Petrol engine, CNG delivers 40% less CO2, 80% less CO and 90% less NO.
• It leads to lower maintenance, is quieter and safer
• In 1996, there were 1 million CNG cars in the world. In 2011 there are 14.8 million......so the global market is growing.
• Now, CNG is not LPG……LPG is derived from Oil and is liquefied (hence the 'L'). CNG is compressed natural gas and its only downside is that it takes up more space than Petrol or LPG.
• Many buses in Sydney already use CNG. Cars and Taxi's in India, Brazil, Argentina, China, Iran etc are using CNG. Trains in the Napa Valley in the USA.
• But we can't just flick a switch and move to CNG.
• So, my view is we need to get people in Australia used to using gaseous fuels….the technology has come a very long way - in fact the Falcon LPG vehicle is more powerful than its Petrol brother and I would defy anyone to pick the difference in smoothness or refinement - it also costs less to run than many small 4 cylinder cars……so let's have Government offer huge incentives for gaseous fuel cars. It can be justified under the banner of 'Green', as even LPG is far cleaner than Petrol.
• I think the incentive should be twofold (1) a large rebate, say $5000 from Government for dedicated factory fit Gaseous fuel vehicles and (2) they be FBT exempt……the net effect of these two things would provide a very large shift toward Gaseous Fuel vehicles.
• Now here's the good bit for Australian industry……the only vehicles in the 64 brands and 240 models currently sold in Australia that are dedicated factory fit Gaseous fuel are the LPG Falcon and the LPG Commodore…..Aussie made, so we get more production volume, create more jobs, and we get a greener outcome.
• The relatively minor cost impost to Government could be covered by the revenue generated by the safety levy and/or a tariffs initiative
• We then need to shift future Government research funds toward CNG technology. Given our natural reserves, why not become a global leader in CNG technology and a niche global export producer of CNG vehicles - the export markets would be large.
• In my view we have to build industries and business not just around the skills and passion of the people, but around strategic benefits we have as a Country - and we are sitting on one in CNG.
 
So, in summary, what I think we can do to change the trend is:
 
(1) we need Fair Trading Agreements - it can't get any fairer than reciprocity
(2) Our tax payer funds MUST be directed towards locally produced purchases for Government fleets - especially where there is no cost impost and no longer any 'Green' rationale not to
(3) We should take a stand on Safety and not allow (relatively) unsafe vehicles to be sold here without significant penalty
(4) We need to reduce our oil dependence and use our naturally abundant resources to our advantage.
 
Plus a bit more about Holden
 
Australia's Auto Industry - The Facts
 
Since the announcement on April 8 that Holden would be restructuring Holden Vehicle Operations in South Australia and Engineering in Victoria,
there has been much public, political and media debate around Australia’s automotive industry.
 
The rest of the world believes in supporting their local car makers:
 
• 19 of the G20 countries have an automotive manufacturing industry, and the one that doesn’t, Saudi Arabia, wants one.
• Most automotive manufacturing countries assist their local industry by way of high tariffs and/or incentives from government, such as financial assistance and tax concessions.
• For example, in the UK, in the last 24 months, with assistance from government grants, $10 billion of foreign direct investment by multi*national auto companies has been injected
into the local auto industry. In 2012, they made 1.5 million cars in the UK. In the next three years, that will be over two million cars.
• This investment creates a booming auto sector, supported by contemporary, competitive government policy, without any debate about whether or not it’s the right thing to do.
 
• Research shows that contrary to popular belief, Australia’s support for its auto industry is one of the lowest in the world – only $18 per capita compared with $90 in Germany,
$265 in the US and $334 in Sweden (Source: Sapere Research Group 2011).
 
Car manufacturing in Australia matters to the economy:
 
We say car manufacturing in Australia matters - by building cars in Australia, Holden has contributed over $32 billion to the Australian economy during the last 12 years.
Over the same period, Holden received $1.8 billion in Government assistance.
This represents an eighteen times return on investment in economic activity.
There are also enormous spill-over benefits into the wider economy, especially through R&D and the substantial spend Holden makes with Australian suppliers.
 
On average:
• Holden receives $150 million per year from the Australian Government.
In any same year, Holden in turn spends:
o $490 million on capital, engineering and design investment;
o $490 million on wages (of which $120 million returns to the Government as income tax );
o A massive $1.75 billion spend to Australian supplier businesses
 
Holden would not make this same economic contribution without locally manufacturing cars.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: anychevy on December 12, 2013, 11:37:46 AM
From another forum:
 
Here is a copy of a speech that was presented at dinner in October 2012 by Mr Mark De Wit National Vice President of the FAPM ( Federation of Automotive Products Manufacturers Association ), it makes for a very interesting read.


When all the facts are presented, it's hard to blame GM for this.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 12, 2013, 11:49:01 AM
Abbott gave GM an ultimatum, now he's in talks with Toyota trying to persuade them to stay in Aus.

Either he's trying to band-aid yesterday's major blunder or something smells a little rotten.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: 86er on December 12, 2013, 12:38:16 PM
Can't blame Tony Abbott for everything
i.e. disloyal Australian market, insufficent import tariffs & Unions
Bloody shame, however this has been in the pipeline for a few years now after the intro of the VE series.
What does this make a country when you loose manufacturing, very reliant & vunerable
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 12, 2013, 12:40:44 PM
Can't blame Tony Abbott for everything

True, he goaded GM into pulling out but that's not to say they weren't having their problems regardless, after all they were bailed out by the US govt. only a few years back.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: anychevy on December 12, 2013, 01:56:57 PM

This has got to be a major factor in Detroit's decision

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/us-carmakers-cut-pay-as-australias-hourly-rates-soared/story-fn59niix-1226779288772# (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/us-carmakers-cut-pay-as-australias-hourly-rates-soared/story-fn59niix-1226779288772#)
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 12, 2013, 02:04:10 PM
This has got to be a major factor in Detroit's decision

It seems a combination of many things - the perfect storm.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: raafrebel on December 12, 2013, 02:27:25 PM
Ford will be next
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 12, 2013, 02:33:32 PM
Ford will be next

Ford have already announced their departure.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-23/ford-to-close-geelong-and-broadmeadows-plants/4707960 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-23/ford-to-close-geelong-and-broadmeadows-plants/4707960)

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: anychevy on December 12, 2013, 03:13:56 PM
Its just business  :leaving:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/the-holden-demise-is-not-all-bad-news-20131212-2z757.html (http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/the-holden-demise-is-not-all-bad-news-20131212-2z757.html)
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on December 12, 2013, 06:31:03 PM
Go back about 2 years ...

Holden signs record pay deal as unions win 22 per cent wage rise
by Ewin Hannan, Industrial editor, The Australian
February 14, 2012 12:00AM

GM Holden has agreed to an extraordinary wage deal that will lift the income of 4000 employees by up to 22 per cent by 2014, despite the carmaker seeking a taxpayer-funded assistance package from the Gillard government.

In a deal hailed by union leaders as "spectacular", workers will receive a "guaranteed" 18.3 per cent increase over the next three years, with some workers to receive up to 22.3 per cent.

Holden refused to comment on the deal yesterday but The Australian has obtained full details of the agreement, which the union said contained no productivity trade-offs. "In the automotive industry it represents the best deal yet to be negotiated and is highly recommended to members," union leaders Ian Jones and John Camillo wrote in a circular to members outlining the deal.

They said the "value of the wage deal is magnified tenfold when you gauge it against the latest CPI (inflation) figures of 2.1 per cent and the horrendous state of automotive manufacturing in this country".

The deal provides for increases in wage and payments equal to 8 per cent for all workers in the first year, and a guaranteed 5 per cent rise with another potential 2 per cent in the second and third years. The agreement involves a 3 per cent wages increase for each year and a guaranteed "hardship recognition payment" of $1750 in the first year and $1000 in the second and third years.

Workers will also receive a 2 per cent "base wage variable bonus" in the first year, with similar increases potentially available in the subsequent two years. Mr Jones told The Australian the hardship payments recognised the financial sacrifices made by Holden employees during the global financial crisis when they were stood down for extended periods on 50 per cent of normal pay.

Holden is negotiating a new assistance package with the federal, Victorian and South Australian governments and critics of the taxpayer-funded support are likely to attack the level of pay rises agreed to by the company.

Earlier this month, Holden told the state government it would cut an undisclosed number of casual and full-time jobs at its Elizabeth plant in Adelaide's north.

Federal Liberal MP Jamie Briggs yesterday questioned pay rises previously awarded to Holden employees, saying recent enterprise agreements did not appear to be delivering productivity and efficiency gains. Mr Briggs said if taxpayers are "handing over large wads of cash", they would expect that companies receiving support would make improvements to their operations.

Holden workers received pay rises of 28 per cent over two enterprise agreements that operated between November 2004 and November last year.

In their circular to members, Mr Jones and Mr Camillo, the chairman of the Federation of Vehicle Industry Unions, said the latest "outcome sees a spectacular approximate minimum 18.3 per cent leap in members' income over a three-year period with a potential for that to rise to 22.3 per cent by the end of the agreement".

Union members will be able to refuse to work overtime if they believe the request to be unreasonable.

The deal also allows workers to bank up to 40 overtime hours on a voluntary basis, which can be cashed out when the employees require it.

Education leave for union shop stewards has been doubled while the company had agreed to new meeting processes and procedures for the Holden Victoria Shop Stewards Committee.

Workers will also receive improved leave provisions, including five days for paternity leave that can be drawn from sick leave. Male workers will also have access to up to 14 weeks paid leave if they are the primary carer.

"The deal is a good balance between fixed increases applied at the base wage and other payments that add to members' disposable income," the circular says.

"In the automotive industry it represents the best deal yet to be negotiated and is highly recommended to members."

Mr Jones said limiting the fixed pay rises to 3 per cent annually reflected the objective of GM Holden's parent company to keep a lid on wages.

"If you look at what is a trade-off from the employer perspective, it means their fixed wage costs are manageable and not blowing out," he said.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: coradict72 on December 12, 2013, 07:01:33 PM
Thank you for posting the lengthy article by De wit.
I'd like to ask a question if you in the market for a new car
say something for the misses or son/ daughter
what would be a model you would possibly consider
disregarding yesterdays news just for now
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 12, 2013, 10:00:14 PM
Well this is one race that ford won
Bfit
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Lefty on December 13, 2013, 05:04:38 AM
Ford, Holden, maybe Toyota will leave.
Australia may not need their own car manufacturer.
When they leave they will leave behind legacy, but more importantly car manufacturing plants.
Australia has some of the best technical ability on the planet,
Where is the opportunity here?

Can Australia build a world class electic vehicle, improve battery technology, increase photo voltaic cell technology to the point is able to be used readily in the automotive industry,a nd offset the carbon footprint we create with our vets.

Might seem far flung, but now it's time to find the silver lining. Any other ideas out there?
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: coradict72 on December 13, 2013, 05:39:33 AM
Well I'll answer my own question

Yaris,echo.mazda3,i20.suzuki?

why,, reasonable and cheap appealing to the buying market
good chance to maybe resell

Oh did I mention the big two
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Lefty on December 13, 2013, 06:24:43 AM
Yes a current option

One possible option for the future,

Get your current ride modified to be more self sufficient, and instead of paying for petrol, oil etc, pay back the conversion debt?

Lefty
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 13, 2013, 11:31:21 AM
All those Holden dealers will sell something that has a Holden badge on it

I don't see to many small business getting any hand outs  to stay open
If you get behind in your tax bills they will wind you  up  with out a thought
Remember the FN large hand out the US government gave GM a few years back
 11 billion as I remember it.
union officials are up in arms, BS I say
the Australian way is the screw the company on behalf of the works
the the federal government  want to screw all the business they can on behalf of who ? the own mismanagement
state Government want to screw every one they can to fill (whos ) pockets  ( more waste )

I am a little pessimistic about the intentions of those in power
I don't think I have seen a politician nor a union official  being evicted  due to lack of money

I am over them all
BFit
 
 


Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 13, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
(http://i0.wp.com/www.kudelka.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/OZ131213.jpg)

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: MY081 on December 13, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
I remember when we could buy an australian made radio and tv and fridge .I guess our kids will be able to say they they remember when we made terrific automobiles Unions are irrelivent ,Politicians have no integrity .
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 13, 2013, 02:46:10 PM
I remember when we could buy an australian made radio, tv and fridge.
You could buy an oven and fridge made by Holden in fact.

(http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo127/als064/IMG_0057.jpg)

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t94/fboldn/100_2249.jpg)

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: MY081 on December 13, 2013, 02:47:23 PM
Dont blame Abbott i dont think the damage was done in the last few months !!!!

Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 13, 2013, 02:52:45 PM
Dont blame Abbott i dont think the damage was done in the last few months !!!!

The car industry has its problems but would the previous govt. have bailed them out again or push them out like this one did?

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 13, 2013, 03:45:55 PM
What we should be looking at is Why
Can other countries make quality motor vehicles at twice the numbers per day or more that we can here
in australia.

its not all labours rate that is the problem.

Also
Is it possible that the fat cats the run these show have deep pockets and they are filling them with as much money as possible while the sun shines.
Bfit

mmmm a bit like politicians do,  some of whom are in the court system rite now
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 13, 2013, 03:48:28 PM
Also, is it possible that the fat cats the run these show have deep pockets and they are filling them with as much money as possible while the sun shines.

Yes it is!

It'd be an eye opener to find out what the CEO's make each year.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: 69VETTE on December 14, 2013, 03:08:26 PM

Personally,  its all the Govenments fault, past and present, but mostly present for fkin up the industries, and allowing the businesses to go overseas to china !

Eg: Pilkinton glass no longer makes quality, first class glass for Australian automobiles, causes its a sh#t load cheaper to import glass manufactures in china (where the is no EPA guidelines & labor is like paying peanuts), which is crap, flawed and has by far lesser quality than that made here to Australian Standards.

Holden now imports all glass from china!.. god help if you crack a windscreen in your car...

Anyway, its i blame Julia Gillard !!!!

Witch of the east
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: coradict72 on December 15, 2013, 07:06:14 AM
Its still quite some time till 2017  Lets hope some clever ideas service during
this period.
I truly believe we should be the same as the UK and allow new car imports
as left hand drive sorry performax but some will still want the foolish conversion

Love to see the C7 here for under $120k LHD adding all import duties and ADR adjustments
Soon we will have a motorists party in nsw we can lobby.

For now a Holden ute looks like a collector for later..
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: anychevy on December 15, 2013, 10:30:22 AM
I truly believe we should be the same as the UK and allow new car imports
as left hand drive
You can fully register an old car that doesn't stop, or handle and has absolutely no safety features at all.
But you cant have a new LHD car, with every electronic driver aid imaginable, 30 air bags, crumple zones etc. etc.

Fair enough on a car which you can buy RHD, but on low volume imports, it doesn't make any sense at all !
You have to spend up to 50K having your car butchered, which is F-cking ridiculous.  :grr:
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: coradict72 on December 15, 2013, 11:05:50 AM
Well said,

Bowling green plant wouldnt even consider making 12 new C7's for rhd to Australia
I can hear the laughter . :laugh:....
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 16, 2013, 08:19:27 AM
http://www.news.com.au/national/the-2017-holden-commodore-will-be-made-in-china/story-fncynjr2-1226783057648 (http://www.news.com.au/national/the-2017-holden-commodore-will-be-made-in-china/story-fncynjr2-1226783057648)

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 16, 2013, 09:34:12 AM
Stephen good article

That is reality in the business world.

The lucky county is now in the situation that we are heading to the time when we can not afford to feed our selfless.

The majority of good trades people are 40 plus and the younger generation are not exposed to the same experiences that the generation of the 50s/60s/70s were

The experience and expertise  our country thrived on, is dying out
where are we heading ?

Political bullsh#t is killing us
Our politicians need to grow some B__ls  and make real decisions

3 years of T Abbortts   BS is going to take some getting past
and what was all the negative S_t for,  just to get the job.
 F the country!

I don't think much of the previous government either.
and the greens
Well I cant go there as I would get banned.

our politicians  are  turning our system into the  Americans stile of crap   and look how there country runs.
Or is it running.
They are bankrupt and no one is prepared to stand up and say so.
their whole  system is living on borrowed time and  Money
17 trillion and counting
Bfit

Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 16, 2013, 09:45:13 AM
Our politicians need to grow some B__ls  and make real decisions

Get engineers to run the country, not accountants.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: 86er on December 16, 2013, 03:42:12 PM
Holden Australia was taken over by General Motors USA, then Unions Australia
This has been in the pipeline for 8-9 years, guys don't kid yourself it only just happened
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: coradict72 on December 16, 2013, 09:19:09 PM
seems today on the radio
that a group of enterprising individuals
forming a syndicate to purchase the holden plant as is
Even though this is hot wind.
but we should kiss the holden brand good bye
The ute fully optioned does feel a collector to go with the old collectables we grew up with

Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 17, 2013, 08:22:22 AM
^ They'll have to make sure they get rid of the union.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/high-wages-stall-holden-engine/story-fnkdypbm-1226779253154# (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/high-wages-stall-holden-engine/story-fnkdypbm-1226779253154#)

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on December 18, 2013, 10:55:31 AM
Here is the full version of the link I posted above, just realised it was only available for a short time.

ONLY $150 million a year will save Holden? Rubbish. The Holden Enterprise Agreement is the document that has utterly sunk Holden's prospects. It defies belief that someone in the company isn't being held to account for it.

Holden's management masks a union culture beyond most people's comprehension. Employment costs spiralled way beyond community standards long ago. Neither "pay freezes" nor more money will save Holden, but getting the Fair Work Commission to dissolve the agreement and put all workers on the award wage might be a start.

In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years. Right now, base wage rates for process workers in the Holden enterprise agreement are in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range and in recent times, "hardship payments" of $3750 were given to each worker.

The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range. This means that before we add any of the shift penalties, loadings, 26 allowances and the added cost of productivity restrictions, Holden begins each working day paying its workforce almost double what it should. After you add in the other employment costs, I estimate Holden's workforce costs it somewhere close to triple the amount it should.

Many people who work at Holden don't actually work for Holden; they work for the union. Occupational health and safety people are given 10 days' paid time off a year to be trained by the union. Most companies do not allow unions to train their OH&S people because the knowledge is used to control the workplace to the benefit of the union.

Union delegates are also allowed up to 10 paid days a year for union training in how to be effective union delegates and two of these delegates are entitled to an extra Holden sponsorship of one paid month off to "further their industrial and/or leadership development".

Holden's rules on hiring casuals are shocking and unheard of in today's market. The agreement forbids Holden from hiring casuals except when a "short-term increase in workload, or other unusual circumstances occurs". If this situation arises Holden has to "consult and reach agreement" with the union. Further, "Engagement of the agreed number of casual personnel will be for the agreed specified tasks and the agreed specified periods." If any of this changes, Holden must get union agreement again. After three months of continuous full-time work a casual must be made permanent. It is impossible to run a business like this.

An ex-employee from Adelaide, on condition of anonymity, consented to an interview yesterday. He described the workforce as "over-managed", with one team leader for every six workers on the production line, when one for every 25 workers would suffice.

He said "some of us workers felt it wasn't necessary to get paid what we were getting paid to do the jobs we were doing", adding that their work is probably worth about "20 bucks an hour". A few years back, mates took redundancy packages in the order of "$280k plus". Workers are "like sheep" that blindly follow the union leadership. At induction, new workers are ushered into one-on-one meetings with the union rep who heavies them into joining. "It is made clear that if you don't join the union you will be sacked," he said. Union representatives "don't actually do any work for Holden", but rather make themselves full-time enforcers of union control.

He says workers are drug tested before hiring, but "only have to stay off it for a few weeks, get in the door and then you'll be right". Workers caught taking drugs or being drug-affected at work are allegedly put on a fully paid rehabilitation program, with special paid time off of about four weeks duration, before being let back into the workforce.

Australian workplaces have a zero tolerance for drug use, with instant dismissal the remedy, but at Holden "the union won't let the company sack" any workers caught dealing, taking or being on drugs. "If they did a random drug test tomorrow they'd probably have to sack 40 per cent of the workforce," he adds.

If the Holden scenario were playing out in a privately owned business, proper cost-cutting strategies would be used. If you have the will and can hire the skill, there are many ways to cut labour costs. The workers can be given a couple of years notice of significant wage drops and can receive lump sum payouts of entitlements to help bring down family debt.

Of course, these strategies are only ever used by business people who have no one else to bail them out. It seems Holden would rather leave the country than dissolve its enterprise agreement. The union thinks members are better off jobless than on award wages. Holden's fate seems sealed.

If Holden does leave, workers will receive the most generous redundancy benefits around. Holden says leaving will cost $600m. Most of this will go to staff payouts. The fellow interviewed agrees with my calculation: the average production-line worker will walk away with a redundancy package of between $300k-500k.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 18, 2013, 12:05:31 PM
^ They'll have to make sure they get rid of the union.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/high-wages-stall-holden-engine/story-fnkdypbm-1226779253154# (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/high-wages-stall-holden-engine/story-fnkdypbm-1226779253154#)

s


Unions had the place 50 years ago and did a creditably job
Now day every thing including breathing is regulated
I have been a union delegate, now days I employ people 
 I have seen both sides.

Twice in my life time I have need the back up of the union
What I go was the back view if the local delegate going to lunch with the management.

Business now days have too much sh_t to deal with before making a profit
 OH yes and them the government put the hand in your pocket
And the state government too with their bullsh#t taxes

And what does the government do with our money

And when they have wasted as much as they can, then they sell some infrastructure for a short time gain

Commonwealth bank
Telstra (they sell Telstra and buy back the pits for more than the original sale price )
etc

unions and government doing a good job ?
no!


Bfit
 
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 18, 2013, 12:24:51 PM
Entitlements and redundancies payouts
I wont start on that
I will only say what a lot of S___
bfit
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Jethro on December 18, 2013, 08:24:52 PM
Young Rob don't bottle up all that pent up anger, let it go son :laugh:
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 19, 2013, 08:14:22 AM
Jethro
its a long standing fact in  business.
if you want to loose money
Put a politician in charge

They could not  make a profit  running  brothel

Bfit
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on December 19, 2013, 08:44:40 AM
They could not  make a profit  running  brothel

... but as we have seen from newspaper reports, brothels can make a profit from their visits.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Scott on December 19, 2013, 09:51:10 AM
From whose visits?  The pollies or the union reps?  :laugh:
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: 86er on December 19, 2013, 12:04:46 PM
Not far wrong.
I have had a saying for a long time now
"Businesses in the past started, grew & where prosperous with no degrees, now you degrees that close businesses"
Go figure
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 19, 2013, 12:12:15 PM
Not far wrong.
I have had a saying for a long time now
"Businesses in the past started, grew & where prosperous with no degrees, now you degrees that close businesses"
Go figure

I   concur
Bfit
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Jethro on December 19, 2013, 07:47:44 PM
I   concur
Bfit

Well if Bob Concurs so do I and the I's have it
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on December 19, 2013, 08:27:55 PM
From whose visits?  The pollies or the union reps?  :laugh:

In NSW it's usually both!

 
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: MY081 on December 19, 2013, 10:53:01 PM
With a bottle of Amerian Honey i can get Bob to concur with just about anything !!
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on December 20, 2013, 04:57:43 AM
With a bottle of Amerian Honey i can get Bob to concur with just about anything !!


Lol
Bob
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Miss Independent on December 20, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
Interesting read Guys, :thumb:
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Jethro on January 10, 2014, 04:37:28 PM
Check this clip out ...

http://youtu.be/Lvl5Gan69Wo (http://youtu.be/Lvl5Gan69Wo)
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 10, 2014, 07:49:46 PM
In 1941 the 20th century was termed the first great American Century.

No prize for guessing what the 21st century will be called.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: VETTENUT on January 10, 2014, 08:06:19 PM
二十一世紀!LOL
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 10, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
二十一世紀!LOL

Correct, except for the spelling errors.

(and there's no prize, as previously stated.)
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on January 10, 2014, 10:50:12 PM
No one worried when Holden was sold to GM  in 1931
The majority of Australians don't  buy Holden  or ford 
This means now a  Holden with come from OS  like most of the cars in Australia

Australia has Been going  down hill for 30 odd years in manufacturing while
our governments have done jack sh_t to promote training apprentices etc
Where did they, the governments think the lack of input would take our country
Bfit

Mmm unions have some responsibility in the suituation as well
Screw the company  until it closes
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 10, 2014, 11:40:33 PM
Australia has Been going  down hill for 30 odd years in manufacturing while
our governments have done jack sh_t to promote training apprentices etc

Would you expect anything different from the lawyers and self-serving union officials that form these governments?

It's said that we get the governments we deserve. We must have been very bad to deserve what we get here.

Quote
Mmm unions have some responsibility in the suituation as well
Screw the company  until it closes

... and then head for Centrelink. We pay, one way or another.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on January 11, 2014, 06:34:17 AM
In 1941 the 20th century was termed the first great American Century.

Yeah, I recall a statement that Europe was the superpower in the 19th century, USA in the 20th and China will be it for the 21st.

There was a great boom in China recently but the momentum is slowing down, similarly it's also happening in India, many Euro and US companies I deal with have set up factories in China and/or India. 

e.g. a few companies offer us a Chinese/Indian price as well as a German price for say valves or pumps, the internals are still made in Germany however.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 11, 2014, 11:33:01 AM
Yes, the manufacturers at the quality end of a particular market still tend to be in the developed world, but it doesn't take long for things to change. When I was a kid, "made in Japan" meant junk. It didn't take long for that situation to turn around (ironically because of American training in quality control).

China's worry would be a big fall in exports, for whatever reason, as their home market cannot yet afford to buy all of their production. They need to manage growth carefully in case they get too far ahead of themselves. They appear to be doing that management.

Meanwhile they buy US long term bonds to finance American credit, so Americans can buy more Chinese goods.

Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on January 11, 2014, 11:54:37 AM
When I was a kid, "made in Japan" meant junk. It didn't take long for that situation to turn around (ironically because of American training in quality control).

Quality is all about machine tolerances and materials used.  How much you want to pay for an item will usually determine the quality.

Some factories produce junk because their market is people who can't afford high end items. They make a killing doing so as there's a few billion poor people around the world who can't afford what we can.  The problem is when unscrupulous retailers pass off this junk as something better than what it is or at a higher price than what it's worth.

Fender guitars found out they were losing so much of their market because people couldn't afford a real Fender and went for cheaper guitars, they set up a factory in Japan and produced the Squier brand of guitars, still made by Fender but in an Asian country using cheaper components.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 11, 2014, 10:00:05 PM
Quality is all about machine tolerances and materials used.  How much you want to pay for an item will usually determine the quality.

That's right.

The key challenge for Japanese factories at the time was to get statistical control over the manufacturing tolerances. Deming taught them how to do it and there was no turning back. Their government bestowed many awards on him. The irony is that while renowned expert Deming was showing the Japanese how to ramp up quality and they took very good notice of him, American manufacturers all but ignored him for decades, until they suddenly woke up to their own serious QA problems, especially in motor vehicle manufacturing.


Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: StephenSLR on January 12, 2014, 10:44:50 AM
The irony is that while renowned expert Deming was showing the Japanese how to ramp up quality and they took very good notice of him, American manufacturers all but ignored him for decades, until they suddenly woke up to their own serious QA problems, especially in motor vehicle manufacturing.

If they applied the same QC it'd no doubt push up the price, it would've worked for a while but eventually someone would twig that labour, materials, land, set up costs, govt. fees, etc., etc. are all cheaper in developing countries.   In general the Germans still put out many high quality products but you pay a hefty price for them.

s
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: Jethro on January 12, 2014, 04:40:42 PM
 :grin: :grin: :grin:

(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/jetrhottracey/ATT00808.jpg) (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/jetrhottracey/media/ATT00808.jpg.html)
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 12, 2014, 05:09:12 PM
^ Broken link.
Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: bfit on January 12, 2014, 05:32:21 PM
I think the challenge for Japan in the fifties was getting over the results of the war
Which ironically the Americans paid for
Most likely lend lease. ( To make a profit ) The same as they  did to he British. During the war
Bfit

Title: Re: General Motors announces it will close Holden Adelaide operations in 2017
Post by: gtc on January 12, 2014, 06:30:56 PM
I think the challenge for Japan in the fifties was getting over the results of the war
Which ironically the Americans paid for

Yep, Deming was in Japan initially as part of the American reconstruction effort for Japan.